How many licks can you put into one song

Tore Blestrud · Post by **Tore Blestrud** » 22 Feb 2003 2:22 am

Once in a while you hear a song on the radio where the steel does the intro, licks, tournaround and outro. It is a "Look how many licks I can put into one song" song. Loving the steel as much as I do, for me the song is destroyed by the steel being all over the place. I wonder what people with a more "normal" attitude towards music might think. And how come the producer let's it pass (if the producer is not a steel player though). Any comments?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 22 Feb 2003 3:47 am

Yes, I have a comment. I don't know what you're listening to...but I wish I could get that kind of stuff on the radio!

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 22 Feb 2003 4:24 am

The bandleader of one of the first full-time bands that I played steel for told me:

"For some reason most steel players think that it's necessary to try to "force-feed" as many notes into a lead as they possibly can...I guess they are trying to impress those two musicians standing in the back of the hall who didn't pay to get in anyway.

I want you to play simple and pretty, or at least something close enough to the melody that the paying customer can understand it. They pay the bills around here!"
www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 22 February 2003 at 04:26 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 Feb 2003 5:17 am

When I first started playing I told a very popular local bandleader that I could play Steel...He hired me....Actually I couldn't really play anything..... So he fired me.

Then years later he hired me again for a few gigs and I played to much..and he yelled at me...and then hired a different player...

then years later ..once again...when I finally stopped playing 100% of the time during the songs..he hired me again..
this gig lasted more than a year and I worked with Kenny Erickson on and off for many years after that...looking back , he was a great influence, but I didn't know it at the time...I had a Sho-Bud Pro III/ D10 and a Twin..I knew it all...all you had to do was ask me....

Today..my goal is....

"How little do I have to play and still get paid" ?

tp

Allan Thompson · Post by **Allan Thompson** » 22 Feb 2003 5:26 am

What you play matters, what you don`t play matters more.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 22 Feb 2003 6:16 am

The only song I can think of hearing on the radio with as much steel as you're talking about is Don't Rock the Jukebox or Together Again and I'm sure the producer wanted it that way. I'd like to hear a little more steel, not all the way through but more.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 22 Feb 2003 7:10 am

Almost all of the old Buck Owens songs had either steel or guitar, rarely both in the same song.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 22 Feb 2003 7:11 am

And how come the producer let's it pass

Because he is the person making the decisions, who is more in a position to know what sounds best to the audience he is addressing. No one else is. So if he decides there should be no steel or loads of steel, no one else is in a position to know what the set of parameters the producer is using to make these decisions. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 22 February 2003 at 07:12 AM.]

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 22 Feb 2003 11:27 am

Tore.........a good observation. Many of today's players string into a long line, virtually every "lick" or "riff" they've ever learned.....regardless WHOSE LICK it really was. Often a Newman lick and a Green lick don't really mesh overall in the same chain when they're sandwiched in between a Roy Smeck and Alvino Ray and Bill Bowman lick.
They tend to revel in the mistaken belief this is what steel guitar music is all about.
They often play the same riff in every song they play throughout a four hour gig.
The really professional players seldom play the SAME LICK in the same song twice and some are capable of never playing the same riff twice in the same night!
With regard to another comment you made:
Bob Eaton's Decca Record....."Somebody's Been Steelin' My Sweet, Sweet Sugar".....features Jerry Byrd. Whether or not you're a fan of Mr. Byrd.......he kicks this really nice tune off, then plays 100% of the backup, a full verse in the middle and then a full bodied tag at the end. I would challenge anyone to say he played too much in this song. He was the only lead instrument thereon. One of his best performances in my humble opinion.
Nice post........Tore! Keep 'em coming.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 22 Feb 2003 12:02 pm

Ray, I notice alot of your posts have the same theme: "Today's players......"

Today's players ?!? Yeesh.

Surely you must have heard Weldon on Connie Smith's "I'll come running", or Neil Flanz bulldozing the Gram Parsons band out of his way on the live recordings of the early seventies, or perhaps Buddy Emmons taking no prisoners in live bootlegs of the Cherokee Cowboys...
Sorry, I don't buy it.
Respectfully,
-John
 Who was born late enough to have no choice but to be one of "today's players".

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 22 Feb 2003 12:21 pm

There is a big difference in playing licks and playing MUSIC

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Click on the pic!

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 22 Feb 2003 12:25 pm

It's usually a good idea to save a few notes/licks for the next song....since I've only got one lick, I have to spread it around carefully.

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 22 Feb 2003 1:05 pm

Why can the (lead Guitar) get away with it? Today playing most of the lead,sole, runs,back up,turn a rounds,etc. More than any steel, or any other instrument. I'm referring to todays country music.More seems to be better when it's a lead guitar,but less seems to be better when it comes to steel guitar? Joe.

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 22 Feb 2003 4:41 pm

A story was "relayed" to me,a while back, about Lawrence Welk. This is when his TV show was a "first run".
He walked into the studio,one day,& heard the guitar player playing. He said,"What're you doing?" The guitar player responded,(hoping to impress Welk)"I'm practicing!!"
Welk came back with,"What for?? You play too much already!!"

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<pre> ~ ~
©¿© It don't mean a thang,
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www.ntsga.com</pre>

Fred Jack · Post by **Fred Jack** » 22 Feb 2003 5:34 pm

My buddy says play all the time, start to finish and let the engineer take out what they don't want. He has made some damn good recordings soooooo That sounds reasonable to me! regards, fred

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 22 Feb 2003 8:10 pm

According to Jeff Newman, too many.

Tore Blestrud · Post by **Tore Blestrud** » 23 Feb 2003 1:09 am

No, I don't mean "Don't Rock the Jukebox or Together Again", those are great songs played with great taste. One of my favorite albums is Charley's "In Person", that's the most perfect steel playing I've ever heard live, and it's NOT TO MUCH. The songs I refere to is by artists I often have not heard of before, and where it sounds like the steelplayer is doing a warm-up exercice. I hope I have not offended anyone!!

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 23 Feb 2003 3:19 am

Repeating the rule heard here often: "Of equal importance to knowing HOW to play, is also knowing WHAT to play and when NOT to play". www.genejones.com

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 23 Feb 2003 4:57 am

I was called once to do the recording of a new song of a famous South African artist.
When they played the song to me I told them that if I would add pedal steel to it, it would destroy the song. "The song doesn't need steel guitar". The producer, the artist and the engineer looked at each other and after a short silence they smiled and agreed. They paid me anyway for my advice.

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Peter den Hartogh-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 23 Feb 2003 8:10 am

They paid me anyway for my advice

Did they already work with you in the past? If this was the first time, did they call you again? Just curious.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 23 Feb 2003 1:37 pm

Yes, I have done recordings before, so they wanted some more of the same. It just wasn't appropriate for this particular recording. Even if I had come up with something very different it wouldn't be right. That's why they realised their "error". I did some more recordings for the same producer afterwards and for the same artist but a different producer about 2 years later.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 Feb 2003 5:30 am

Allan and Gene have it just right.
I wear all the hats; producer, writer arranger, sideman and engineer.
I often do 2 or 3 Dobro / lapsteel passes, and then only pick about a 1/6 of what I played between all the tracks. And then edit that back again! Inspiration and clarity combined to support the song.
But it is EASY to over do it. Just remember there are more songs acomin'. So you have another chance for that next cool line.
Also I will add " Learn everything and then forget it. Then what naturally comes out will be you." Not Buddy, Weldon, Lloyd, Don et al.
No offence to these masters of course.

Tom Stolaski · Post by **Tom Stolaski** » 25 Feb 2003 5:27 pm

I played on a gospel CD a couple of years ago for a guy that just LOVED steel guitar. I was told that I would play on about four or five cuts. By the end of the afternoon I was featured on ten tracks. I did the intros, breaks, outros, almost all of the fills. There was one mandolin solo and two guitar solos on the entire CD. I must admit that I ran out of licks half way through the CD. I got paid per track, and left with a nice pile of cash, but it was overkill. To this day, I cannot stand to listen to that CD. A few months later I played on another CD for the same guy and really had trouble finding something new and fresh to play. I really thought that I had a huge arsenal of licks until this experience. It was not your typical, everyday, normal recording session.

Bob Hayes · Post by **Bob Hayes** » 26 Feb 2003 3:31 pm

(T&C) ALL OF THEM!!!!

Terry Wood · Post by **Terry Wood** » 27 Feb 2003 7:33 am

There's a time and place for about everything. I learned to play what I feel fits the song. If I'm doing a recording session, then I play what in my opinion fits the song. If I don't think a steel fits then I refuse to play on it. Also on the sessions that I'm included I'll make suggestions as to what will or will not work.

There are alot of people recording today, all over the world, and many of them don't have a clue as to what fits and what doesn't fit on a song. Next, there are alot of recording personal, producers, engineers, etc., those that don't know steel guitar. Nor do they realize what helps recordings sell; which the STEEL GUITAR has done for decades. Listen to Emmons, Green, Myrick, Garrish, Hughey, Drake, etc., etc. that paved the way for us-in's.(Smile! You English Profficient Personal, that's Ozarkian for Ya'll)

Anyhow, I've heard people ask musicians to play on sessions and gigs and make their instrument sound like anything other than the instrument it is. I experienced it myself in the studios and stage shows, acts,over the years. The late Curly Chalker referred to that on the cover of his "Counterpoint L.P." (released by Pedal Steel Products of CA). And Curls as most of you know could cut it on the steel.

I've been asked to play the steel and make it sound like a piano, guitar, fiddle, string parts, horn parts, etc. It got me a bunch of gigs and I used to keep my mouth shut. But these days my livelihood lies elsewhere, so I play or don't play what satisfies my aesthetic tastes. As the late Julian THarpe once said, I wear my own kind of hat.

TRUE there is a place to play and not to play on a song. However, YOU the player must learn to make your own judgments and not always rely on others. Granted there will be times you'll need the cash/gigs and you'll compromise, but don't ever think you always have to do it. You might find a change of scenery more pleasing. Right now Florida, Arizona, Southern Cal sound pretty good, since we are getting SNOWED OUT here in The Ozarks.

Keep up the picking and smile! Better times a comin'!

May GOD bless you all!

Terry/Woody
Revelations 12:11