Loud and Powerful Amplifiers

Larry Chung · Post by **Larry Chung** » 22 Oct 2002 11:41 am

Here's what I hope is not a silly or unfounded question for everyone, especially you steel players that have been at it for awhile . . .

Why, in this age of modern gear and especially modern PA gear, microphones and sound systems, do pedal steel players need a really powerful amplifier, I'm thinking of the 100-200 watt amps, to perform on-stage?

I understand the need for a larger speaker to reproduce the lower frequencies of the instrument, but I'm puzzled as to why players don't just put a microphone or direct line into the monitors or sound system at shows and run a smaller amp at moderate levels.

I usually just bring a small(ish) amplifier to gigs and run a microphone to the amp or a line-in and it seems to sound/feel/fit-in just fine. I don't play stadium shows or crowded bars with no sound systems. Perhaps that's my problem! (:

Don't mean to step on anyone's toes, just curious. My back hurts just thinking about hauling too much equipment...

------------------
Larry Chung
ZB D-10 8+4; ZB Custom S-11 4+4; ZB Student Model 3+1 Yeeeeahhh, Bay-Bee.

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 22 Oct 2002 11:59 am

It's mainly to have clean headroom. It's there when I need it. Not always do I have the luxury of a good PA and my own monitor mix so I can project with moderate volume. I don't know what amp you use, but a $300.00 Nashville 400 @ 200W is more bang for the buck than an $1,200.00 50W "designer" amp (IMHO).

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 Oct 2002 1:04 pm

Eddy Van Halen once said when asked " Why do you need all that volume and power from the wall of Marshall amps behind you ? and he said.."It's not for the volume, it's to insure the clarity and sustain of the soft passages" .

It's just like a high end home stereo system of several hundred watts, it's not for the volume but rather the clarity or maybe better described as a clean dynamic range in the listening volume range.

A guitar player seeks the warm distortion, the Steel player runs away from it. Many times we are the same person !

I do believe though that a quality small amp used as a stage monitor fed to a quality sound system with a quality sound engineer is a good thing..but it's not your typical weekend bandstand situation.

The 300 Watt Peaveys are aimed at the weekend warriors like most of us who want a good clean tone with no distortion and moderate volume.

tp

tp

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 22 Oct 2002 1:12 pm

I usually just bring a small(ish) amplifier to gigs and run a microphone to the amp or a line-in and it seems to sound/feel/fit-in just fine.

Larry, if that suits you, then more power to you! On the other hand, I like the sound of a band who just uses their amps. It gives you a feeling of "livliness" that you just don't get from a house system. For instance...if I go into a club, and everything's miked...I'm stuck with what's coming out of the house speakers. Alternatively, if everyone's just using their own amp, I can move closer to the steel man (if I want to hear more steel), or away from the lead man (if he's too loud).

Though a good P.A. system might give you a more consistent sound, you're really at the mercy of the guy runnin' the board. If I sound bad because of what the sound man is doing...most people still think it's my fault, and not the sound man's!

In short, I'd rather be "in control" than "controlled" by someone else!

RON PRESTON · Post by **RON PRESTON** » 22 Oct 2002 1:25 pm

Donnie,
Truer words were never spoken...That is exacly the way I feel about "SOUNDMEN"!
It is HARD to find a soundman that KNOWS what he is doing, and HOW to make a steel guitar SOUND

like a steel guitar.
A goodern' IS WORTH their WEIGHT in GOLD.
The BEST one I ever worked with (with another band)was a fellow that ran sound for Chris Ledoux.
His name is Joe Clark, but, the last I heard, he was no longer with Chris.
He taught me ALOT about sound when Chris was playing in Salt Lake City, or Eveston, Wy, on the Rodeo circuit. I followed them around (middle to late 80s) before Chris hired the old "CowJazz" band out of SLC,Utah.
They are called "Western Underground" now.[This message was edited by RON PRESTON on 22 October 2002 at 02:27 PM.]

Mike Brown · Post by **Mike Brown** » 22 Oct 2002 2:00 pm

I agree with Chris about headroom. From my live sound performing experiences, 100 to 200 watts is not an issue until you need maximum power when performing with other musicians. Even then, your volume level is dependant upon how loud the rest of the band plays. So, if you get onstage and the band drowns you out and you have your "pedal to the metal", you are out of headroom(available power). A good rule of thumb is to always have more power than not enough. This "rule" will also decrease the chances of amplifier clipping, which is the main reason for speaker failure.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 22 Oct 2002 5:19 pm

IMO, you can't beat a Nashville for all of the reasons. It's relatively light, you can run a clean 1/4" line out, or use a little radio shack adapter to go into a lowZ line.

If you're part of an "opening act" for a name band without a steel, you can easily find that you're being killed in the mix for some reason. If so, that is where the 200 watts comes in. Point it at the ceiling, or down on the floor away from your ears, and *punch it*.

They're the most reliable and fixable amps I know of.

The only drawback I've found is that they sound too brassy and tinny from where you are sitting. I've *never* liked the sound. 20 feet away, it's a whole different story. The reverb leaves a little to be desired, and a cheap stop ehco/reverb stomp box will take care of it.

If the "compression" light bothers you or your fellow band members, by coming on a lot at high volume, you can take your leatherman and break the bulb.

Seriously, It's the best I've found for the reasons you list.

------------------
EJL63FLH
'78 Pro III Sho-Bud
'63FLH 90"Stroker
'80 Gold Wing
-Peavey: When it's *not* about "The Sound"-
"You can Smart Yourself Dumb.
Why Can't you Dumb yourself Smart?"-Me
"There are only so many ways to fry cat food."- Buster
"At my age, sometimes I run out of Adrenaline, but I've still got plenty of Gall.." -Me-

Quesney Gibbs · Post by **Quesney Gibbs** » 23 Oct 2002 3:14 am

Back in the late eighties I was on a Canadian tour and was forced to put up with a sound man who did not have a clue (he was related to the band leader)about sound. I finally got out of the mix and handled my own sound. At that time I was using a Session 500 and I had all the power I needed. Over the time of the tour lots of people came up to me as asked why I sounded clearer than the rest of the band. Nuff Said...

Ques

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 23 Oct 2002 7:02 am

Eddy Van Halen once said when asked " Why do you need all that volume and power from the wall of Marshall amps behind you ? and he said.."It's not for the volume, it's to insure the clarity and sustain of the soft passages".

Soft passages? van Halen? I think he was pulling the interviewer's leg. With Van Halen, it's for the volume.

I played in a loud country rock band for a few years, that carried a sound man. I set up my little boogie on my right, at a right angle to the steel so it was facing me, not the audience. The sound guy miked it. It sounded great to me on stage, but I later learned that you couldn't hear it out front. The sound guy didn't like steel!

Most of the gigs I play are with small PA systems. The vocals won't sound very good if we mike all of the drums and amps.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 23 Oct 2002 7:57 am

Everyone has what they like in a amp.I can not get the sound I want out of a solid state amp.I along with many, love the sound of the tubes.I had a gig last week where I was playing through my Peavey tube amp and after it was over people were saying how well they could hear me over the rest of the group.I believe in using a p.a. operated by someone you can trust as needed.I am glad that Fender,Crate,Peavey,and others build good tube amps because many do love the tubes with their pedal steel.

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 23 Oct 2002 8:18 am

Soundmen??? I had the pleasure of going to the Nashville Palace with Bobbe the 7th of July. He was subbing for Mike Cass (hope I got that right?) Bobbe played through an old ShoBud amp w/a 12" spkr. I think everyone was miked and I never heard a better balanced group! I complimented the sound man later in the evening. He said he was a studio engineer and had been doing it for 20 years! A band is definitely at the mercy of what the guy running the board thinks your band is supposed to sound like! They are not always right?? IMHO

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 23 Oct 2002 8:48 am

I hear you Doug! In the early years I always made a friend of the club bouncers to preclude someone rearranging my teeth...and in the later years I always made a friend of the soundman to preclude someone rearranging my sound!

Both were a good investment and were well worth the effort!

www.genejones.com

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 23 Oct 2002 9:21 am

Also, the difference between a 100 watt and a 200 watt amp isn't much, you need a 1000 watt amp to double the volume of a 100 watt amp.

Larry Chung · Post by **Larry Chung** » 23 Oct 2002 9:47 am

Thanks, everyone, for the replies and info. I agree 100% about the relationship with soundpeople. They can make or break a gig, really.

I usually do our sound and it works out well - people usually say there's too much steel in the mix. (;

I use a couple of older 50W tube amps, which I love to plug into and which won't pull a muscle getting to the gig. A 12" speaker seems to mic just fine for E9, but I find I need a 15" to really get a good C6 sound. BTW - I run my amps at medium volume and like the sound through a mic just fine. Has to be a good, full frequency range mic.

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 23 Oct 2002 11:41 am

Quote: "Soft passages? van Halen? I think he was pulling the interviewer's leg. With Van Halen, it's for the volume."

I disagree with the tone of Bob's comment, and also have to say that I hate it when people trash rock musicians without thinking first. (However, I do agree that he was probably pulling the interviewer's leg.)

No matter how many amps you have in an arena, the guy in control of everything is the guy at the mixing board. You can have a semi-trailer full of Marshall stacks, and they're still going to get lost in a huge space like an arena even if it's empty. Add a few thousand screaming people and those stacks are buried in the noise without that massive PA.

OK, I admit that I like Van Halen and their ilk just like I like Buck. Contrary to popular belief they do have dynamics and soft passages along with the (I admit, mostly) loud passages, too. I'll admit that being in show biz, EVH probably wasn't telling the whole truth. Since I don't know the real reason for the wall of amps any more than Bob knows that "it's for the volume", I can only guess that 99% of the reason for the wall of amps is for show. Bottom line. It looks impressive.

There can be other reasons as well. Maybe it's for setting multiple amps to different settings: one clean, one dirty, one bassy, one trebly, etc. Maybe it's to run a stereo chorus on stage so it sounds good to the player. Maybe it's to get enough onstage volume without having the amps being totally and unintelligibly distorting. But I suppose that if you really wanted it loud onstage you could do it by micing a Princeton Reverb and having a ton of monitors.

I still say that it's for the visuals.

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 24 Oct 2002 4:53 pm

I disagree with the tone of Bob's comment

...too much mids?...

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 25 Oct 2002 11:52 am

Interesting comment by Donny about individual (loud) stage amplifiers create more of a live feel than PA amplified sound.
I suppose you could take that view even further and say a perfectly miked band in the PA might sound too much like a CD recording, actually diminishing the live band experience.....!

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 25 Oct 2002 5:02 pm

I think b0b is on to it. Don't want to have to trust the sound guy.

I play a Nashville 400 and my goal right now is for someone, anyone, to ask me to "please turn it up".

Clean head room? Something desparately needed in the mens room at work.

------------------
HagFan

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 25 Oct 2002 8:41 pm

I just got a new amp, it's a Traynor YCV80Q, 4x10, and supposed to be 80 watts, but I think it may be a few more. I guarantee it's all the power I'll ever need, or want.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 25 Oct 2002 10:23 pm

Few people seem to realize that the louder the music, the poorer the quality, and those that say they agree, refuse to do anyting about it! Maybe the solution is to play 'til you can hear yourself well, and forget about whats going out front! If someone wants to hear better, they'll have to solve the problem for themselves! I personally am tierd of trying to be heard. I can have the best sound that I've ever had when setting up, but; when the band starts playing, you would think that I left the building with Elvis! If I have my equipment positioned so that I can hear myself, I don't worry much about the rest. If they are uncooperative about getting a balance There is not much I can do about it! To complain is feutile! "Big John" I have agood sound, but; you'll have to visit, if you want to hear it!

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 25 Oct 2002 10:50 pm

I'm going to agree with the original post. I have been playing for 6 months or so with a 30 watt tube amp, and have never wanted anything more, since all the venues I have been playing have decent sound systems. ANd because I love the way this amp sounds when it is pushed (even for clean sounds). On the other hand, if I was playing through a solid state power amp, I would want all the headroom I oculd stand carrying. 200 watts minimum, probably a lot more than that. Mainly because the solid state stuff sounds like crap if you get any where near distortion. Whereas tube amps just start sounding great when you get near distortion.

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 28 Oct 2002 7:06 pm

Danny

What amp?

bob

Larry Chung · Post by **Larry Chung** » 29 Oct 2002 12:13 am

Just my .02, but I was lucky enough when I just started playing clubs to meet a soundman who gave me the best sound reinforcement advice I ever got:

PAs are not necessarily meant to make things louder, just to make them audible to the people at the club. Imagine if a couple of people were having a conversation in a corner - if the soundperson is doing his/her job, the goal is to make that conversation or whatever audible to everyone who wants to hear it, just as if it were happening in front of them. No louder than that!

I always tried to make that my goal when I deal with sound reinforcement. I'm always amazed at the loudness of most country bands I see in clubs. I'm also curious to see how close people sit or stand to the band. Oftentimes, the band that plays at the right dynamic level has a crowd sitting or standing right up next to them. It's all about not being too loud, but also being able to hear the band, too.

Again, just my .02.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 29 Oct 2002 9:08 am

I've been playing through a THD BiValve through a THD 2X12" cab (with Celestions).

------------------
www.tyack.com

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 29 Oct 2002 9:39 am

Hank Thompson's formula was that if you were having no complaints, the music wasn't loud enough.....Keep turning it UP until you were having a few complaints that it was TOO loud, and then leave it there! www.genejones.com