Lloyd Green said...

erik · Post by **erik** » 3 Jul 2002 2:52 am

(on <a href=http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/1962>this</a> web site) that he recorded most instrumentals in a sharp or flat key to avoid bothersome overtones. Can someone explain this, and does it apply to a 6-string guitar also?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 3 Jul 2002 4:58 am

You probably know that, on a regular guitar, you can play harmonics on certain frets by lightly touching the string as you pluck it.

Well, on a steel guitar, the bar produces those harmonics naturally, and it's damn hard to get rid of them, as Lloyd notes. One way to avoid them is to play in a key where the main chords do not fall on the frets that produce strong harmonics. I think that's what Lloyd is talking about.

Another way would be to tune the steel to a key that is not used frequently -- like F# -- then when you play in the key of C or G, you're not going to get those harmonics.

Anybody, if I've got this wrong, please correct me.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Jul 2002 9:03 am

The harmonics "problem" is most often caused by the back of the string ringing out behind the bar. The effect is most pronounced at harmonic points like the 5th, 7th and 12th frets. It is particularly bad at the 4th fret, where a harmonic lies close to, but not exactly on the fret.

Some builders design the keyhead so that the length of string between the key and the nut is a integer fraction of the scale length. This increases sustain at the harmonic frets, whether the string behind the bar is ringing or not.

The combination of these two factors (behind the bar and behind the nut) causes different harmonic content at the various fret positions. I imagine that Lloyd Green with his keen ear knows which positions provide the most even tones, and picks his keys accordingly.

The keyhead problem, by the way, is solved by keyless tuners. Some people like the even sound of a guitar with a keyless head. Others prefer the rich but less balanced sound of a traditional headstock.

The traditional country sound incorporates the harmonic differences generated by the head of the guitar. It really does add a dimension to the tone, and that dimension changes as you move the bar. A keyless guitar, on the other hand, has a more predictable harmonic content from one fret to the next.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 3 Jul 2002 9:18 am

"Peg-head" harmonics...I learned this trick from inspecting Jay Dee's Emmons; use stripped wire (12 guage-ish) as a dampner. I stripped out 3" sections wire and run the strings through it between the nut and the tuning peg.

On my Sierra. the distance from the nut to pegs 6 & 7 is significant to produce a noticable over tone enen while blocking properly. The vibration from the guitar is enough to do this. I insulte the middle six strings and dont' have to worry about it now.

Foam strips would do the trick but colored wire looks nicer.

Thanks Jay Dee!

Tom Jordan

Larry Petree · Post by **Larry Petree** » 3 Jul 2002 9:27 am

Peg head harmonics.
Another way to get rid of those harmonics is, strech a rubber band from key shaft #1 over the strings and put it on string #10 key shaft. I have been doing this for years and it really works, and is easy to do. You probably have an unlimited supply on your morning newspaper. Try it, you may like it.

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 3 Jul 2002 10:02 am

Gosh, I envy you guys that can really hear that. I've been playing steel for 18 years and have never been able to hear the peg head overtones but have friends here in town that say they can. The 12th fret over tones do drive me crazy though.
Henry Matthews
1983 Emmons p/p, D-10

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 3 Jul 2002 10:22 am

Henry,

I must confess that I can't hear those over tones when playing live. Drum kits have a way of covering those things up. It is very appearant while listening to an isolated recording track...all you hear is your creation, tuning and residual noise!

--Larry your rubber band idea is just to simple! I actually do that on my tele...I've just been too lazy to install an additional string bracket. Strings 3 & 4 can really sing to you if they are not damped.

Tom Jordan[This message was edited by Tom Jordan on 03 July 2002 at 11:27 AM.]

Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 3 Jul 2002 12:02 pm

Bobby --thanks for explaining an aspect of the steel that had never even occurred, or been pointed out, to me. It probably goes some way to explaining why (to my ears) Lloyd green gets different tones on certain songs. For example "Moon River" and "Feelings" from his "Steels the hits" CD seem to me to be subtly different tone-wise.I had begun to think that maybe it had something to do with where on the neck he chose to play a given phrase. Do you think that this overtones business reinforces that theory?

erik · Post by **erik** » 3 Jul 2002 12:28 pm

I get the concept now. Thanks for the replies. Carry on with the discussion if you'd like.

Leroy Riggs · Post by **Leroy Riggs** » 3 Jul 2002 3:24 pm

When I play the E on fret 12, I notice a distinctly different sound than I do when I play the E at fret 7 with the pedals mashed. The open E at fret 12 sounds less-than-full. I never understood why.

I wonder if this harmonic action is what I am hearing.

Leroy

Ted Solesky · Post by **Ted Solesky** » 11 Jul 2002 9:39 pm

When started playing pedal steel, I was using a Fender 1000. It was a nightmare on the the high G#. I heard that some of the pro's were tunning down to a D. So, I ended up tunning to Eb. I got used to it and I'm am still down to an Eb. It really helps when you work with singers that sing in A or E or D. It makes it tough for guys who want to sit in and use my guitar. I don't recommend this. I have been told that this setup does affect my tone.