reverb and recording

Gibson Hartwell · Post by **Gibson Hartwell** » 26 Feb 2006 7:58 am

I am working on a project and recorded my normally reverbed steel almost dry thinking a good reverb would be added during mixing.

I heard a rough mix and was suprised the engineer left it pretty dry. I assumed he would add a nice reverb that would add some dimension–and presumed this would be better than the mono reverb I would produce from using the reverb on my fender amp.

I made the recommendation to him but I'm skeptical he will end up using the right amount of reverb in the end. This isn't my project so I'm not 100% invested in it. But that is my steel on there!

I know this will vary from project to project and engineer to engineer, but how many have of you have just given up faith in later mixing stages and just used your amp reverb?

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 26 Feb 2006 8:29 am

I'd never use amp reverb during recording. Once recorded, it's impossible to adjust, so if it's too much and clashes with reverb on other things - like vocals - the engineer has no options.

Play dry, and let the engineer/producer decide on the reverb. It's usually not your job in the studio (especially on someone else's project) to decide how your steel should sound or how it will be mixed. Your job is to play to fit the material, with the best natural tone, period....unless they ask you for something specifically different, like overdrive, special effects, etc.

Leroy Golden · Post by **Leroy Golden** » 26 Feb 2006 9:28 am

I am with Jim on this one...record dry and add effects later is the rule we follow in my studio and it never fails! The only trouble you'll have is convincing an engineer that doesn't know much about PSG what it should sound like!!

John Groover McDuffie · Post by **John Groover McDuffie** » 26 Feb 2006 9:59 pm

Another reason to record dry is easier punch-ins. When you punch in on a track which is recorded wet, you will can get reverb tails which are cut off at the punches, and reverb tails coming from nowehere.

That being said, when recording through an amp I sometimes use a judicious amount of spring reverb, mostly because I like the idea of it being there.

By the way the Matthew Sweet CD "Girfriend" is mixed with very little reverb on anything. This includes Greg Leisz' pedal steel on several songs and lap steel on one. As I recall all his tracks sound pretty "sweet" (ouch! pardon the pun) But then again if you play like he does, your tracks won't need much sweetening! (ouch! ouch! OK, I'll stop)[This message was edited by John Groover McDuffie on 26 February 2006 at 10:00 PM.][This message was edited by John Groover McDuffie on 26 February 2006 at 10:01 PM.][This message was edited by John Groover McDuffie on 26 February 2006 at 10:01 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 27 Feb 2006 7:50 am

You can record dry without it sounding dry when you record it. Have the engineer add fx through the aux/fx loop and record only the uneffected sound.

It's easy to add fx at mixdown and, in most cases, IMPOSSIBLE TO REMOVE THEM.

Another point: if you are recording this project for someone else, for pay, it is THEIR PROJECT -- even your steel tracks. All you can do is suggest and realize they may not heed your suggestion. If you are paying for the sessions or it is your band, you have much more to say on the issue. Otherwise, you are just a hired hand. Welcome to the club.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 27 Feb 2006 8:21 am

I Always now; and have for a long time, recorded my steel with the final reverb sound I want my steel to have.
Yes every now and then; I have to battle with the engineer on the "record dry add later" thing; but I always win; because I'm not working for him; he's working for Me; as I'm hired by the person/company that he is hired by; to record Me.
I know what I want my steel to sound like in the final mix; so I know how to make it sound that way at the recording time. It hasn't always been that way and it does take a while to gain that confidence; but after you've done it a while; you just know.
Ricky[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 27 February 2006 at 08:28 AM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 27 Feb 2006 10:54 am

I always record with whatever reverb I use. Whatever comes out of my amp is how it is on the track. The trend in NYC studios is to just have the guys play like they play and not screw around with it. Its been like that for years. Guys get hired because of how they sound so why waste a bunch of studio time messing it up after the fact ?
Its hard for me to remember that last time I had to do a punch in

but I've never had a problem with reverb or fx.

With new producers it usually goes something like this:

For overdubs I set up a speaker cab (THD 2/12) in the recording room and run speaker cable from my showman into the control room with my steel. I have them set up one mike on the cab (2 or more mikes can cause phasing) 3 to 4 inches back and off axis.

I plug my steel into a holy grail reverb and then into the amp. So I'm sitting next to the producer and he says we should ......whatever....blah, blah blah....

I say thats a great idea but lets see how it sounds along to the track as long as I'm set up already. We run the track (On record !) and I play along and the engeneer smiles and the producer says "Lets keep that one and try another pass for yucks."

Every once in a while I will get a producer that needs a dry signal because part of there style is to use an over all reverb to create a common ambiance. Mostly those guys just have me turn my reverb down a bit so I can keep my sound and still not get lost in the sauce.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 27 Feb 2006 11:56 am

I'm with Ricky and Bob.

Steve Dodson · Post by **Steve Dodson** » 27 Feb 2006 2:36 pm

Al, I agree with you. I'm with Ricky and Bob also.

Gibson Hartwell · Post by **Gibson Hartwell** » 27 Feb 2006 4:28 pm

One thing I don't like about playing dry in general is that the spring reverb on the amp does bring out the tone I like. One fine engineer I had the opportunity to work with told me to get the sound I wanted reverb-wise because it would save us work in the end, but this was a whirlwind, fast project with huge time constraints.

However recording with amp reverb you do limit the reverb's dimension, right? But is it possible to create a better sense of roominess and dimension if you are recording using amp reverb and just using one mic? I'm assuming that this is possible through subtle use of stereo and reverb delays. Haven't played around with this enough on my own. I see some experimentation on the horizon.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 27 Feb 2006 4:45 pm

I have often recorded with a touch of the amp reverb (or the POD) if I feel it is essential to the signature sound, and then added the "room" reverb in the mix. It's a fine line though, too much of the amp reverb and you're stuck with something that may not work in the final mix.

It's also much easier to control this when it's your own tune/recording because you usually have a pretty good idea of how it's supposed to sound when it's done. When doing session work it's a lot harder to know exactly what the producer wants the finished product to sound like, so I usually leave the reverb decision to him,- which is part of why he's there in the first place. A session musician who gets a reputation for constantly arguing with the producer won't get many jobs....

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 27 Feb 2006 5:16 pm

I never argue with the Producer; but I do argue with the engineer(if he needs arguing with..ha); as they are two different people. The Producer is usually the one that hires me to be me.
Ricky

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 27 Feb 2006 5:47 pm

If the entire band is in the studio, there is no problem flavoring the reverb on the steel at the time of the recording.

However, if the session is done in increments, then the steel should be recorded dry as there is no way of knowing what the final mix will be.

Ricky, you are my golf bud and steel guru, but I would not be your friend in the studio, because when I worked in Nashville, no player put reverb on at the time of the recording. If they did, I politely asked them to not use reverb and then during playbacks we would discuss how much to add afterwards so that I could do what I needed to do to get the recording technically correct and also get an idea of how much reverb the steel player wanted.

With all the new toys out there today, perhaps the best way to do it is record the steel dry and the effects on another track and then blend to taste when the final mix happens.

Also, if you want to cut and paste a couple of takes to get the best performance, the reverb "tails" could be different and that could elminate a possible good combination of performances.

Just a thought or two.

Mark

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 27 Feb 2006 6:59 pm

Another vote here for dry recording. You can always change it later, or even run the recorded track back through your amp or FX to get the wet sound that you might have wanted to record originally.

But if you record the steel with FX, it's impossible to get back to the dry Sound.

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Gary Shepherd

Carter D-10

www.16tracks.com

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 27 Feb 2006 7:42 pm

You can always change it later,

But down here. They never do.Maybe if you had time to go back for the final mix.Who can afford that? Unless it's a personal or band project? Here they want straight to the board, (Yuck) and no effects.I don't use much verb. But I do like a little.I like delay with 2 fast repeats at about 1/2 the volume of the original signal.I do understand the problems this could cause.

But I'm with Ricky and Bob.I like Ricky's idea about not working for the engineer. That's the way I've always looked at it.[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 27 February 2006 at 07:44 PM.]

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 27 Feb 2006 8:23 pm

Yes Mark; If you were the engineer on a session I was hired to play on(and yes I've recorded in Nashville and Capitol records and over 100 master sessions)than I would fire you in a second(and yes I've fired my share of engineers; sitting on my steel guitar chair)> eventhough we're pals and everything; business is business.
I know more about my sound than most if not all engineers; is what to be the final mix sound, and I can get that in the first recording. If a player is not sure if they can get that or if the engineer or producer is not sure they can get that....Is when the "just record direct and dry and we'll fix it up later" thing comes into play.
I've had NO trouble recording like that at Capital records in Hollywood or BIAS studio or any of the Nashville recording studios(which I find to be almost a joke....ha)and the major commercial studio here in Austin called Tequila Mockingbird. It's usually the want-a-be studios that I run into those problems with engineers...but then it's an easy fix by saying: "Go get the guy that hired me; and I bet your out the door before me; You choose".
Ricky
[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 27 February 2006 at 08:26 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 27 Feb 2006 9:11 pm

I don't make a living as a studio musician, but I'm with Ricky on this. It may be "their project", but I play on it only if it makes sense to me. I'm sorry, if I'm being represented as the "guitar or steel player", then I want some input about what it sounds like. Of course, the sound should fit with the bag they're doing. But musicians have only their reputation, and if I sound like garbage, people ask me what the problem is, not the producer or engineer. There should be some give and take here.

So when I record for someone else, which is occasionally, I run one track natural - the way I usually play, with a little reverb and delay. That is the sound in my monitor. If they want a dry track, they record a second track totally dry from the guitar. If there's a real problem with the wet track, we can take that dry signal and run it through whatever amp and effects we want and re-record it. But I want "my sound", such as it is, available. In fact, that's usually what they wind up using. There were a couple of unpleasant exceptions when I first started playing steel - and that's why I'm a bit more hardnosed now.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 27 Feb 2006 9:47 pm

I never argue with producers or anybody in the studio. I guess they trust me at this point to give them what they need. It seems like at a certain professional level there is a mutual respect that kicks in. We all seem to enjoy learning from each other. I guess I keep things pretty dry anyway.
The producers that try to micro manage my sound and playing tend to be amature hacks. I just do what they say because nobody is ever going to hear the recording outside of the 35 people they give the CDs to at there big CD release party anyway.

Gibson:

However recording with amp reverb you do limit the reverb's dimension, right? But is it possible to create a better sense of roominess and dimension if you are recording using amp reverb and just using one mic? I'm assuming that this is possible through subtle use of stereo and reverb delays. Haven't played around with this enough on my own. I see some experimentation on the horizon.

The work I get I need to keep my sound focused and compact. My window for expression and dimentia, I mean dimension is within the confines of being the steel player. Even the singer sings into one mic and the good ones have almost nothing in there signal chain. When I think about it some of the most dimensional recordings ever were very simple and in mono. All that studio magic stuff to create dimension is why there were so many hidious recordings from the 80's and all those plug-in happy rock CDs that sound like agitated midgets.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 27 Feb 2006 9:48 pm

I know more about my sound than most if not all engineers

'nuff sedd.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Feb 2006 5:05 am

I guess I'm very fortunate. The studio engineers around my neck of the woods are all top-notch musicians. They know how it's supposed to sound! They're the ones who hire me in the first place, not the producers. (It wouldn't be very smart to argue with the guy that gives you the call for the session, would it?) I've heard horror stories about dealing with engineers who aren't good musicians, but luckily I've never had such an experience. The majority of my sessions I've cut have been dry through a direct box, right into the board.

At a session, I'm not the star, just a hired hand. The guy that hires me tells me what he wants, and I do my best to accomodate him.

I wouldn't get much session work otherwise.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 28 February 2006 at 05:06 AM.]

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 28 Feb 2006 5:09 am

This is getting a little over critical IMHO. Reverb is only an addition to the sound and since I was a head engineer at a studio, I was not abled to get fired. And after doing a 1000 sessions with Hal Rugg, 200 with Lloyd, 300 with Weldon, and lord knows how many with the other guys, I would say that we really did not have problems with recording dry and adding reverb later. Neither did most of the other engineers that I knew in town. To be fair it was a different time as well.

Also, it was never the engineer vs the musician. We all worked together to get the best sound. If someone wanted something different, I was more than willing to do it.

I spent many hours working with Hal and Weldon on their "tone" and I can certainly see Ricky or anyone else getting upset if the timbre of the instrument was to be drastically altered. And there I am in total agreement with Ricky. Reverb on the other hand is a different issue and should be added after the session IMHO again. We always had the reverb on the monitor mix so the guys had an idea of where we were going with the reverb.

My relationships with these guys was solid and I was alway willing to give them what they wanted. However, I suspect that we would have never gotten that cool steel lick in Simon and Garunkel's The Boxer if the steel had been recorded with reverb. I suspect that the elevator shaft where that reverb was done would never have happened.

Finally Ricky, I suggest you mix a couple of sessions at some time and you will see how the dynamics of the instruments can change and that adding reverb is not "fixing" as you put it. You would be surprised how the reverb tails will change just by where you pan the instrument. Also, you lose the ability to pan the reverb returns and to eq the tail of the reverb if you want to. Can't do that when the reverb is coming out of the amp. Multi track recording was designed for a couple of reasons. One to have the ability to controll every aspect of the mix and to have the ability to remove one instrument and perhaps add another.

Too many toys in the studio to play with.

Regards,

Mark T.[This message was edited by mtulbert on 28 February 2006 at 05:14 AM.][This message was edited by mtulbert on 28 February 2006 at 05:20 AM.]

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 28 Feb 2006 5:15 am

Donny, I agree with your attitude. As I have said over and over, "I get paid to make singers sound good". That's why I am called a "sideman".
I might add, when I work with a drummer and don't realize he is there, I always complement him for his fine work.

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www.home.earthlink.net/~johnd37

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 28 Feb 2006 5:18 am

I have to agree, I'm the "hired hand" and there to do what they want in the studio. I've done some sessions that they allow me to basically do what I want and I've been on others that will tell me what they want or how they want to record.

I've heard some that use way too much reverb and/or delay and that would really mess things up on a recording if they were left to determine how they were recorded.

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 28 Feb 2006 5:30 am

Another thought.

We booked the musicians because of their creativity and what they had to offer for the entire session. However, after the session was over, it becomes the engineers responsibility to make the entire product sound as good sonically as he can. This is a combination of musician ship and technical knowledge and it does become tricky sometimes to not let one or the other get the better of you. You can also have a producer who is not up to snuff.

Ricky, I can tell you that there were many times when I got into arguments with the producers because of what they wanted to do with a particular instrument (many times the steel). They would at times go beyond good musical taste and I was not bashful to tell them when they crossed that threshold. As a result I would say that alot of the stuff I recorded back in the 70's still sounds good today.

I always felt that if you the right group of pickers in the studio than producing was an easy job.

M

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 28 Feb 2006 6:49 am

I think that we can all agree that there are situations that arrise, whereby we want our reverb to be printed on the first pass, and some like it dry .... I think in a lot of cases it mainly depends on who's recording you, and whether or not you have a relationship with this person ...In some instances you might know the engineer very well, and he or she has recorded you in the past , and you know what to expect, and so do they ....I also think that when it comes to effects, that it's a good idea to have outboard effects for your rig .....This way you can run cables any way you want to achieve a recording WITH your effects , and also record dry WITHOUT your effects all on the same pass .... Sure you will eat up a couple, or a few tracks in one shot, but if it 's a magic track, you may want both with and without effects for comparison...If your amp has the reverb built in, and there is no way of also recording the dry signal, you are basically stuck wtih what you have on tape ... This is NOT a bad thing as Ricky states, if this is part of your signature sound, and you are perfectly happy with this sound ... A lot also has to do with what the pedal steel will be used for on the project ... You can listen to most any country tune that has pedal steel , and envision that tone, but then you can listen to the Brothers in Arms album wtih Paul Franklin playing and you are hearing 2 completely different styles....So there's really no right or wrong....Only different ...Jim