Pedal steel future is digital

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 Oct 2005 8:16 am

I was just reading in Guitar Player about Dominic Frasca, who plays a 10-string classical guitar. It has 10 individual RCM sensor sadddles, one for each string. "The ten channels are routed to a MOTU 828mkII and an ART DI/O via a custom breakout box, which is connected to a 1GHz Apple Macintosh Pro 6.4.3 with Waves and Blue Tube effects plug-ins." I don't know what all that junk is, but I get the idea. Individual pickups and channels for each string will eventually solve not only all the tone problems, but also the mechanical problems of pedal steel.

If you want a different EQ for your low strings and your high strings, say more treble for the low strings to add definition and string separation, and less treble for the highs, to keep them from being too shrill, then you just adjust each individual string's EQ. Eventually you should also be able to model different pickup sounds. So you could have single coil dynamics, with humbucker silence. You could model a vintage 8K pickup, or a modern 18K. You could use different pickup winding emulations on the high and low strings. You could add some fuzz or overdrive to the high strings, but keep it off the low ones. You could sound like an acoustic guitar, a Dobro, a vintage lap steel, a flute or a violin - on different strings. The sky is the limit. Surely this is just around the corner.

But that's not all. With individual pitch shifting for each string, The pedals and knee levers could become electronic rather than mechanical. There would need to be a mechano-electronic way for them to be touch sensitive, but that has already been worked out for touch-sensitive keyboards. You could also have wrist and palm pedals. You could even have pitch shifting buttons in the bar, or mouth operated, or whatever. You could change the function of each pedal, lever or button for different songs and different styles of music. You wouldn't need two necks.

Basically, all of the needed technology is already available today. It is just a matter of someone designing it and building it. For tone control, all you would have to do is install the pickups. Everything else is already available in laptop software, except the traditional pickup emulations.

If I was a pedal steel manufacturer, or was young and computer savvy, I'd be approaching Line 6 or Digitech for a collaboration on an individual-string pickup pedal steel and appropriate software right now. Connecting up to the pedals and levers is a little more complicated, but all the needed technology is out there right now. The days of the 1940's technology used for today's pedal steels are numbered. The main real obstacle is the small market. On the other hand, software and electronics manufacturing is way cheaper than mechanical manufacturing - so there is hope. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 12 October 2005 at 09:43 AM.]

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 12 Oct 2005 8:24 am

David, great post! I just happen to be working on your topic. I think the future is hooking up a guitar to your computer tower. Or---hooking your guitar to a micro controller that is programmed by your computer. I am doing the micro controller stuff right now, and programming the controller on my computer. I can program the guitar tuner I built on my computer, and this particular system does not require a special pickup. Individual pickups for each string is the traditional way guitar is able to access MIDI. I happen to believe that standard pickups can also access MIDI, by serial digital signals. It is extremely easy to convert an analog signal to digital, then alter the signal any way you want with a micro controller that you have programmed on your computer. For those that don't believe, trust me when I say your car probably has 25 micro cotrollers in it's electrial system.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 Oct 2005 8:50 am

Alright then. The details of how to do this are in good hands. I am clueless about the details. But I can tell from the general principles that all the stuff to do this is already out there. It's just a matter of putting it all together and coming up with a few pickup simulations unique to steel guitar.

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 12 Oct 2005 9:16 am

As if we didn't have enough to worry about:

* Cabinet drop
* Pickup height
* Pickup brand
* Pickup type (humbucker vs. single coil)
* Steel height
* Pedal travel
* Knee lever travel
* Pedal stiffness
* Knee lever stiffness
* Just Intonation vs. Equal Temperament
* String guages
* String brands
* String windings (steel vs. nickel)
* Bar material
* Bar brands
* Seat height
* All pull vs. push pull changer
* Types of all pull changers
* Mica vs. Lacquer
* Gauged vs. non-gauged rollers
* Brand of steel
* Type of amp to use
* Types of cables to use
* Brand of volume pedal
* Type of volume pedal (pot vs. electronic)
* Analog vs. digital delay
* Analog vs. digital reverb
* Brand of effects pedals

And once you have solved all of the above problems (not before!!!) can you then actually start to actually sit behind the darn thing and...oh....I dunno.....PRACTICE!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 Oct 2005 10:17 am

I know, Joe, it seems like just more complexity. But I don't think it has to be that way. I invision this much like the current Variax or POD situation. When you get your pickup and software, there would be a few standard type presets that you could just sit right down and use. At your convenience, you could set up your own customized preset channels, with different individual string EQ, pickup simulations, fx, etc., and with different copedents. So you could be as simple or complex as you wanted to with it.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 12 Oct 2005 10:31 am

David-I think you have just made us all think of the Steel guitar of the future, and what it would be like. You are right about all the technology already there to do it.
It would sure correct a lot of mechanical problems. But as you say, small market, only about 5000 a year , as of now but maybe more guitar players would buy one and that would increase the market a lot....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 12 Oct 2005 10:52 am

I think the "old" analog style pedal steels will still be around for many many years. I can see this digital steel costing $15,000 to $20,000 until all the production bugs are worked out. I can't see anyone selling more than 1 or 2 a year. Look at IVL's Steel Rider and the Steel Guitorchestra, they were going to turn the pedal steel world on its ear too, and where are they now? Even though the basic technology may be available, the logistics are not there yet.

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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 12 Oct 2005 11:33 am

With enough time and enough money... The cost/benefit ratio is still skewed to far the wrong way.
I still prefer making music the old fashioned way, earning it.
Joe A., consider for a moment your list to be individual "degrees of freedom". A remarkable list I might add. Any time you try to automate something the resulting constraints tend to close the envelope of available degrees of freedom. Me thinks the hands, feet, and fingers will always outplay a robot.[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 12 October 2005 at 12:37 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 Oct 2005 12:20 pm

Even with the small market, I see this as being fairly inexpensive. We're just talking about a special set of individual string pickups, a lap top computer, 10-14 track software not that different than the many home recording packages out there, and an instrument with plastic pedals and levers (no mechanical stress, so you don't need metal) wired to a computer interface. And, Ray, I think you have the wrong idea. The way I see this, you still play with your picking fingers, bar, steel strings, feet and knees, just like we do now. It's just that the pickup(s) is different, and is wired to 10-14 track computer software, with tone shaping, fx, and pitch shifting capabilities just like what is already out there in such software. This is something Casio could make for a few hundred bucks.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 12 Oct 2005 12:48 pm

Sorry David, I thought you were automating the whole shebang. Looks now more like you have in mind automating the "soundshaping". Now I understand.

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 12 Oct 2005 1:22 pm

And once I all have those new gotta-have-it hi-tech toys, I'll walk in my studio someday, plug in my ZB straight up and and wonder what ever happened to the good old days.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 12 Oct 2005 1:35 pm

Atta boy DD...This PSG thingy (Horizontal Electric Concert Harp) has a long way to go.

The BEAST has two interchangeable/removeable pickups...so an individual string pickup can be slid right in to either slot. An individual string pickup is relatively simple; what you do with the signals afterwards is questionable at this point in time for me. Do we immediately digitize/quantize each string, and go from there...do we stay analog, apply individual gain, tone shaping per string and recombine in analog to make use of all the existing equipment...do we split it into string groups and treat each group?

I decided on using the Roland pickup (GP2?) because it already exists and is suitably interfaced. The GR box allows lots of MIDI controlled samples. This works with the existing pickups and the sounds can be combined.

For the "standard pickups" I use dual winding pickups with a three to one ratio between windings. The windings can be combined is enough ways to be confusing for a wide range of tone/attack/phase variations.

I use voltage follower op amps for active on board HiZ in/LoZ out impedance buffers.

It can be used with or without the on board op amps. The alternative is the FAST TRACK USB recording interface (instrument Zin is 500K, Zout is 32 ohms)...the power source is the USB, and the signals also go via USB if desired.

Pop an ASIO driver into the computer and get better than needed latency.

The GT PLAYER software gives 13 effects that may be used left, right, or both, plus another set after the combining. These are all presettable, and switch (click) selectable on my laptop that is on a photographic tripod right in front of the instrument (like a music stand, for which it also serves, plus recorder, etc.).

The output to the amp(s)/board is also digital = wireless via BLUETOOTH.

That arrangement is not a complete digital setup. The multichannel approach for individual string pickups used individually for pitch shifting etc. is probably best approached via a custom chip = needs a larger than 5000 pcs. a year for sure. Pressure sensitive resistors are common on keyboards...think pitch shift with existing pedal/lever hardware plus PSRs. Instrument can be used both ways for now to preserve the "feel". The same function can be achieved with mag, or light sensing applied to the pedals/levers.

Right now, I would like to have a sound card with two or more sets of inputs and a software mixer built in.

I have given up on an LCD neckboard (programable) for the BEAST...too expensive to make for a single user (me). Same reason for not making more Zirconia bars = small market.

DD, the digital world will come to the PSG one step at a time. The march to digital won't be led by cabinet makers, by machinists, or by stomp box/rack gear makers as it is not to their economic advantage to do so.

And then there is the problem of getting a "hero" to use/play it!...a requirement in making a market as in "if my hero uses it I have to have it, if not I don't need it".

The all digital PSG will come, but I expect to be dead by then. Implementing a vision takes a lot of time.

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 12 Oct 2005 4:45 pm

If it wasn't for Thomas Edison inventing the light bulb, we would all be watching T.V. in the dark.

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 12 Oct 2005 4:53 pm

I can remember the time "before" television came out. Oh, those were the good old days! Listening to Ozzie and Harriot on the Radio. Listening to Sky King, and the Creeking Door on the radio. And that reminds me, I havn't seen a Jack Rabbit in over 45 years in Missouri.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 12 Oct 2005 5:34 pm

Cottontail rabbits are still plentiful, though, Keith.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 12 Oct 2005 6:14 pm

Keith:
Re "creeking door", was that Raymond, your host, on Innersanctum?

Blake Hawkins · Post by **Blake Hawkins** » 12 Oct 2005 6:22 pm

Keith...I still my Sky King "Spy-Detcto-Writer" and an autographed picture of Sky King.

Blake

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 12 Oct 2005 9:08 pm

I think Buddy brought this subject up several years ago. He mentioned this in an interview and he can probably recall the time. We know what an inovator he's been over the years and I'm sure he's explored this in depth.

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 12 Oct 2005 10:06 pm

Sadly, i fear that the big corporations with the research & manufacturing resources to make this happen at a price someone actually can afford are in business to make money, not musical instruments. Otherwise, Yamaha and Ibanez and Samick, etc. would have been big players in the steel market for years already, and Fender would still be around. IMHO.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 Oct 2005 10:07 am

As far as I can tell, all pedal steel manufacturers have been small companites started by players. Fender is the one exception, but they hired steelers to make theirs. So I don't look to the big companies for this. I think it would be more likely to happen with the collaboration of a forward thinking pedal steel company, such as Carter, MSA, or GFI, and a small electronics and simulation type company, such as Line 6 or Digitech. Of course Keith Hilton could get it done, and he seems to be working on some of this, as well as Ed Packard. This would be a good project for a young computer savy musician in music school.

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 13 Oct 2005 10:42 am

All kidding aside, here is the real truth: I am having a lot of fun. One of the most important things in life is to keep learning. There have been times when my life when got in a rut, and the older you get the more difficult it is to pull out of a rut. Never turn away from progress,or learning, because it will happen with or without you. My advise for being happy, and staying young, is to start learning. You can refuse to learn anything new, receed into a shell, make yourself miserable and try to make everyone you come in contact miserable also. People who do this age quickly. On this forum I see all kinds, I wish I could make more people happy. The sad truth is, most of those that need this advise, won't take it.

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 13 Oct 2005 12:27 pm

In 1978 , I think , Buddy Emmons came over to Finland as a part of a package show and I did a short interview for the finnish national radio with him . I asked what he saw in the future of the steel and , yes , he said that he thought the changer system will eventually be electronic .

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Olli Haavisto,
Finland

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 Oct 2005 1:36 pm

You are so right on staying young Keith. Taking up music again, and going out into the clubs to play younger types of music with younger people has really gotten me out of the career and social rut I was in.

I know people have fantasized before about electronic pitch bending replacing the mechanical pitch bending of today's pedal steel. But I didn't really get how easy that would be until I read about Frasca's setup. He uses his for tone shaping, not pitch bending; but I suddenly realized that once you have each string with a separate pickup, and run those into digital multitrack software, you have what you need for electronic pedals and levers. Essentially all of today's multitrack software lets you change the pitch of each track independently. All you have to do is wire that up with touch sensitive pedals and levers. That can't be too hard. Even cheap Casio keyboards have a pitch bending wheel, and they can change keys for you.

Of course, electronic pitch bending may not sound exactly the same as physically pulling and loosening the strings. Maybe you will loose some twang. I don't know. But it might be worth it if you can change tunings and pedal/knee changes just by switching to another preset channel.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 13 Oct 2005 2:35 pm

I like a real steelguitar, not a hi-tech pimped-up calculator!!
JJ

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 13 Oct 2005 3:33 pm

I eventually see a fretboard that is radically different also. All the strings would be used for is to trigger. You could have the instrument set up with only one guage of string all the way across. The computer would be programmed to tune the strings to whatever tuning you wanted. The changer would not be needed. It would all be done via voltage control. You could have a steel body with foot pedals and knee levers hooked up to the computer. Strings would not be pulled at all. This is not far fetched.

Not only this, but as with the Variax guitar, you could have the sound of all sorts of instruments modeled for the steel. You could also model the different steel guitar models and have all of them at your disposal. Push a button and have the sound of a Zum or Emmons or Sho Bud or vintage Fender......amazing thought. Someone will do this.

Edit: Forgot another important result of all this. The weight of the guitar can be cut a HUGE amount.[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 13 October 2005 at 04:58 PM.]