Need help recording PSG

Nigel Mullen · Post by **Nigel Mullen** » 1 Jul 2005 5:31 am

I have just purchased a Fostex 8 trac home recorder and and wondering the best way to record PSG. When I go directly into the board I don't like the sound I'm getting. Should I be using my amplifier and mike it? If so how do I place the mike? I am using an Emmons PP and have both NV 400 and Fender steel king amps. Appreciate your help. Thanks

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 1 Jul 2005 5:36 am

Nigel,

If you are going direct are you using a DI or pre-amp before the steel?

I prefer micing an amp speaker.

Let us know what you find.

Good luck,
Drew

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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden D-10 8/8, Fessenden SD-12 5/5 (Ext E9), Magnatone S-8, N400's, BOSS RV-3

Andy Zynda · Post by **Andy Zynda** » 1 Jul 2005 7:08 am

I always remind myself that electric guitars are a two part instrument. A large part of what makes electrics sound like they do is the amp that they're playing through.
If you bypass that part, your tone will be seriously altered. A Shure SM 57 in front of your amp will make a WORLD of difference.
Experiment with mike placement till you find the "sweet spot". Every amp has one, and every mike will find it differently.
-andy-

Nigel Mullen · Post by **Nigel Mullen** » 1 Jul 2005 7:32 am

Thanks Drew and Howard for your help. When I play live through an amplifier the sound I have is really good. The hookup I used when I went direct to the recorder was like this: Guitar to super sustain matchbox to volume pedal to recorder. I turned the tone control on the matchbox to almost full bass as the PSG was so sharp through the headset. I have read some posts previously on the "Forum" and most of them say to record without effects. Is that true? I certainly appreciate you sharing your experiences with me. Thanks so much. Nigel

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 1 Jul 2005 8:13 am

Hi, Nigel...
Most players I know don't like the sound of their steel "direct", just into the board straight out of the volume pedal. The direct sound can be useful as a tonal color or special effect, almost, but sounds kind of thin and lifeless to many ears. There is quite a bit of signal conditioning being done by an amplifier, besides just making it "louder". A lot of guys won't record any way except by using an amp, lots of other guys use one of the many processors like the Line 6 POD, Peavey Profex II, TransTubeFex, or a preamp by Walker, Webb, Evans, Blue Tube, or similar.
I wrote an article about just this for the (seemingly defunct) Pedal Steel .US magazine. If you can't find a copy, email me and I'll send you a file of the article. Good luck!

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 1 Jul 2005 8:32 am

Although I prefer mic'ing up a cabinet, the Steel King is one of the absolute best direct sounds I've ever used. I've been using the direct SK setup on the new Nils Lofgren project and everyone is really happy with the results. Give it a try and see what you think (if you have a decent mic and preamp, also try mic'ing the cab).

Mike

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 1 Jul 2005 8:36 am

I've been getting some really nice tone direct from my PODxt. Now the playing on the hand...

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 1 Jul 2005 10:07 am

Recording direct requires a ton of UP FRONT preparation.

A few things to keep in mind..

and also, this is like a BOOK..this stuff is an endless education...

when you record without effects, the playback may very well be VIRGIN..the wrong EQ, the wrong playback effects etc..

You should first write some EQ patches that are similar to what you set your amp to. The strong mids contained in the on board EQ's will kill ya.

Then maybe write some effects patches ( delay/reverb) to be called up for the Steel..

Then be sure that patch is selected for playback and or listenening to while monitoring the direct reording...

Are you using a TUBE preamp, ? Even a cheap low end 12AX7 preamp will yield better results than the direct digital input.

Are you using -6db as the reference for the digital recorder ? 0 DB is for analog..if you attempt to use 0db reference for digital you WILL saturate the front end of the recorder.

I record direct mainly..using individual patches for EQ, Compression, Delays, Reverbs etc...I suspect your 2 main culprits are the digital preamp and the lack of the proper EQ being selected for playback or for monitoring the recording.

RECORD DRY..no effects...you can add or remove them anytime you like but if they are part of your HOT track they cannot be removed..ever..

Spend some time with the machine and what it offers..experiment with different EQ's and patches. Write your own patches that you will use often...

The Fostex is a fine machine and there is no reason why you should not get fine DIRECT results, but ya gotta spend some up front time first..

Whether you record with an amp or direct, a common thread exists, you still need to be real savy with your recorder..

I am not an expert..but not a novice either...

good luck

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 02 July 2005 at 06:35 AM.]

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 1 Jul 2005 11:15 am

Same thing when using an amp, experiment a little. I usually like the amp mic`d off the center, closer to the outside edge.
Hook

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www.HookMoore.com

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 1 Jul 2005 11:27 am

I use a Peavey Vegas, pre-amp out from the Vegas to the input of the recorder, and a plug inserted into 'power amp in' on the back of the amp (to silence the speaker).
R B

Robert Parent · Post by **Robert Parent** » 1 Jul 2005 12:07 pm

I have good luck using a Roland GP100 preamp direct. With the Roland I have been able to get a mic'ed cabinet sound without the amp, speaker, or mic setup hassle. It took awhile to find the right setting but when you do you will find it work the effort. Being able to save your setup for doing over-dubs later is worth the effort in itself.

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 1 Jul 2005 1:50 pm

Nigel,
Many players resist the engineers request to go direct, perfering to mike thier amp. Engineers want to go direct because that's how they can get the cleanest sound, and modify it later. It's a never ending debate.

I believe the main issue is we players don't trust the engineers to do it right.

Now that you have a home studio the issues are a bit different. You are the player and the engineer. You can argue with yourself, or trust yourself.

I do a lot of home recording on a Tascam 788 (recently upgraded to a Tascam 2488). I've had my best results going direct, then adding effects (usually only reverb and delay) later in the mix.

Here is an mp3 clip of a demo I did recently, on the 788.
1970 PushPull (Orig pickup) > Brads Black Box >Hilton Pedal > 788
http://www.joeyace.com/audio/imhmitm.mp3

The effects that were added were internal to the 788.
(Just some reverb, compression, and EQ)

The mandolin is also me, direct into the board with a Godin A8.

The nice part about going direct is you can try different effects, listen, and change them as much as you want.
If you recorded with effects there's no turning back. You can't unmix paint.

It takes some effort to learn the engineering job but it's worth it.

Joey

[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 01 July 2005 at 11:16 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Jul 2005 4:44 pm

I'm another of those weirdos who prefer to record direct. I use a Boss GT-6 most of the time, sometimes with a Black Box, sometimes not.

All the recordings on my Tunes Page were recorded with my Emmons or Fessenden guitar (sometimes with the Black Box between the guitar and the VP) to a Hilton Volume Pedal, GT-6, into the board or digitally in using an S/PDIF digital connection.

My personal favorite, sound-wise, is this one: <A HREF="http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/InMyRoom.mp3" TARGET=_blank>
"In My Room"</A>

Good luck. It can be done.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 01 July 2005 at 06:01 PM.]

Kevin Ruddell · Post by **Kevin Ruddell** » 2 Jul 2005 4:32 am

A lot of people are using the Tech 21 Sansamp units when recording with great results. I use the acoustic DI in front of my Fender and Peavey tube amps and it's a wonderful unit that is very quiet and transparent. It's basically a 3 band active eq direct box with a sweepable mid knob , a level control and a tube emulation control for adding thickness. It seems to fix a lot of things soundwise forr me and has a built in effects loop with XLR output. I don't know anyone who works for this company , I just am impressed with their product. I also used this with a piezo equipped instrument with great results. I tried my tube preamp, but this actually seemed to work better. The Sansamps are almost $200 with an AC adaptor but worth every penny. When I get some time to do some recording I'll use a Shure microphone on the amp speaker and the Sansamp and blend the 2 sources .

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Jul 2005 5:39 am

Larry..very excellent playing AND example of DIRECT recording..

I doubt anyone anywhere can get it done better than your IN MY ROOM example..

I am curious about your EQ patch..would you mind commenting....

Recording..Live or Die by the EQ patch...

thanks

t

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 2 Jul 2005 8:17 am

Thanks Tony

I EQ'ed the recording patches the same way I do live. Start with everything as flat as possible -- no cut -- no boost. Turn the lows up until it woofs then back off a bit. Turn the highs up until it bites too much then back off a bit. THEN FOR THE MIDS. I usually cut some in the vicinity of 800, but you can get too hung up in the numbers. It's the SOUND that matters. I'll set the cut at about -4 to -8db and then dial in the frequency. It's usually between 600 and 1000Hz. Once I find the EQ point for the mids I fine tune the cut. The objective is to clean up the midrange and a slight cut around 800 usually does it for me.

Whenever I change anything, it's usually JUST THE HIGHS. Once the lows are warm and full and the mids have been optimized to clean up the overall sound, you can use the highs to dial everything else in to taste.

EQ is a characteristic of your playing, as personal as the notes you choose to play.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Nigel Mullen · Post by **Nigel Mullen** » 2 Jul 2005 2:02 pm

Just a note to let you guys how much I appreciate all the information you have given me. I have tried some of the suggestions and I have a really improved sound already. It will take me a few days to go through all the ideas and get the ones that work for me but I sure appreciate all of you taking the time to help me out. I'll let you how I make out. Thanks Nigel

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 2 Jul 2005 11:35 pm

Just one more thing to think about Nigel:
Are you sure you can trust your headphones?
You describe your signal chain, then say that you are monitoring the whole thing through cans.
Tthat is alway a problematic area. There are people who can make the necessary mental adjustment between headphone sound and the sound from speakers in a room, but there are a lot who can't.
To give an extreme example, I know a superb, very highly trained singer who consistently sings 50 cents sharp when wearing headphones.
If you have any money left, buy yourself a good pair of nearfield monitors- though even a pair of Behringers or Edirols will be an improvement when it comes to judging tone.

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Cheers!
Dave

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 3 Jul 2005 5:38 am

Larry Bell and I usually think the same way. I have been recording at home and getting a direct sound that I like better than any miked sound I tried. I am connecting my guitar into a Lexicon effects unit, then to a guitar preamp(for eq adjustments),then to a peavey mixer(w/eq),then to the digital recorder (Fostex D-80).
If it makes any difference, the preamp happens to be one that was pulled out of a "Crate C-60" guitar amp.

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 7 Jul 2005 1:17 am

Well, I guess I was just lucky on my last recording session about three months ago. Recorded steel parts for a CD with a country gospel group on six or eight songs. Don't remember exactly. But anyway, it was in a 36 trac studio and all I done was set my D-10 Carter up, didn't even check the tuning on it and pluged direct into the board. Started playing a few things to get warmed up and the producer really liked the Carters sound, so we didn't do anything but play. Went ahead and put down the steel parts in about 45 minutes and before I packed up, I checked the Carters tuning. It was perfect with the tuner. No effects other than a little reverb. Guitar has XR-16 pick ups.

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 7 Jul 2005 12:42 pm

I've had "OK results" with steel -> MPX 100 (effects bybased, just used for preamp) -> Hilton VP -> external sound card (USB port of laptop) -> was Cakewalk, now learning Cuebase (with Presonnus firepod)....
I actually recorded a "song" of around 8 tracks, each one a differnet procedure for recording... speakers of session 500, direct sess 500; sess 500 preamp out to board, and the same with a Fender Delux 90 DSP, and the MPX 100.... never got a good mic sound (but don't have expensive mics)... this is a great technique to easily compare each seperate tone.

I agree with most here, keep it dry, then add what you like, so you can "unscrew the light bulb" if needed. (:>)>=[

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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Session500; Hilton Pedal
www.ameechapman.com