Tone Differences In Solid State Amps

Derrick Mau · Post by **Derrick Mau** » 22 Feb 2005 3:52 am

Within the past year, I had purchased three Fender Sidekick 20 Reverb amps(Solid State)for my steel guitars. I was surprised, that even identical amps set to the exact same settings had a tone difference that was noticable enough, that even my 10 year old daughter knew which was the best sounding amp. Just recently, I puchased the Micro Cube after my friend Bobby Ingano had raved about it so much. I had a bet going with him that my Micro Cube would sound noticably different from his, so I set up an appointment to do an A/B test. After 15 minutes of critical listening, there was no doubt a noticable difference in tone. Mines had a lot more bass from low to mid-range, Bobby's Micro Cube was considerably brighter throught the whole spectrum.

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 22 Feb 2005 5:39 am

I believe everything you say Derrick, but I can't explain why.

How can an amplifier with seemingly inanimate objects such as transistors, a cookie cutter speaker and an injection molded plastic box sound different from each other?

I want your MicroCube. I want one with more bass and low end response. My MicroCube works well for my steel but craps out on the bass notes of my archtop guitar unless I keep the volume low.

I contacted Ted Weber of Weber speakers about building a replacement speaker for the MicroCube, one that has more headroom and bass. He is looking into it.

Has anyone tried replacing the speaker with a heavy duty 5" car stereo speaker? What do you guys think of that idea?

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association
[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 22 February 2005 at 05:40 AM.]

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 22 Feb 2005 7:06 am

Moved to Electronics from No Peddlers.

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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

Paul Arntson · Post by **Paul Arntson** » 22 Feb 2005 7:22 am

Component tolerance and speaker break-in history could go a long way towards giving two amps different sounds. A lot of the components are toleranced at 5% or more in that stuff, and that can add up quick.
Also, did you use the same power supply with each one, just to eliminate that as a variable? Available power supply current can drastically affect the low end on some amps.

Have you ever noticed that there is a slight compression built into the front end of the uCube? I thought I detected it the other day on mine. That might explain why mine sounds terrible with my 56 magnatone D8 thru a compressor pedal, but sounds wonderful with my 51 magnatone s6 and no compressor.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 22 Feb 2005 10:25 am

Component tolerance and speaker break-in history could go a long way towards giving two amps different sounds. A lot of the components are toleranced at 5% or more in that stuff, and that can add up quick

So true, especially the resistors and capacitors in the tone circuit, which is where your "tone" is constructed. The IC chips tend to have even more range of tolerance, if the factory does not test and match (ridiculously expensive to do) these parts there are all sorts of ways that internal gain structures can differ in the same circuit.

Unfortunately, purchasing close tolerance components or testing for the same would add so much to the cost of manufacture that no one could afford to buy the finished product.

This all being said, the amps SHOULD ultimately be capable of getting the same tone but the controls will not necessarily be in the same place when doing so. Since I am in the audio business I have the good fortune to have access to a decent audio test rig and can match EQ curves from amp to amp (as I did when I switched from my well-worn rack system to a Randall Steelman 500 recently). Without it, the Randall was not much good to me as I never could find "that sound" on my own.

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<img align=right src="http://www.pdxaudio.com/dgsept03.jpg" width="114 height="114">Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
Pickin', etc.

1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, Randall Steel Man 500, 1960 Les Paul (SG) Deluxe, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 22 Feb 2005 12:33 pm

How can an amplifier with seemingly inanimate objects such as transistors, a cookie cutter speaker and an injection molded plastic box sound different from each other?

All electronic parts may appear identical, but deep down inside, where it really counts, at the electrical level, they're really different enough to be unique. Pick up a bag of 2N2222's from Radio Shack, test 'em on a curve tracer, and you'll find you'll have no two curves identical. Close, but not identical.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 22 Feb 2005 1:56 pm

Most components in amps have a tolerance of plus or minus 10%. Some components (like electrolytics) may have a tolerance of plus or minus 20%-50%! Age, as mentioned, has an effect too.

Setting the controls exactly the same, and then comparing the sound of two different amps is a pretty poor method of comparison. Amps should always be compared based on total (overall) capabilities, not the way they perform at a certain setting.

Loni Specter · Post by **Loni Specter** » 22 Feb 2005 8:23 pm

The older amp should have more bass, as the speaker breaks in.I recently had some speakers reconed for a home stereo Infinity 2x10 cabs, and it took a long time to sound good.

Fred Rushing · Post by **Fred Rushing** » 22 Feb 2005 8:51 pm

Someone tell me what a Microcube is? Fred

Derrick Mau · Post by **Derrick Mau** » 23 Feb 2005 2:27 am

Hi Fred,
The Micro Cube is a new portable amp made by Roland. It can be run on AA batteries or with an AC adapter. It has a 5 inch speaker.

Derrick Mau · Post by **Derrick Mau** » 23 Feb 2005 2:30 am

Hi Paul & Donny,

The test was done using both identical Micro Cube's and using the same power supply.

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 9 May 2005 11:29 am

My son is back home from college for the summer. He brought his Roland MicroCube.

I was able to A-B his Microcube with mine. His had more bass response!

Luckily he was willing to swap with me. He plays a Stratocaster and doesn't need as much bass as my Arch-Top Jazz guitar.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

Bill Leff · Post by **Bill Leff** » 9 May 2005 12:04 pm

Yes Paul, I have noticed the compressed tone of the MicroCube. In fact, the last time I played mine (a few days ago with a Ric Bakelite) I really noticed it a lot, so I switched over to my Fender Deluxe Reverb and the compressed tone was gone (and the Fender sounded a lot better, but that's to be expected).

I'm not fond of that compressed sound.

Rand Anderson · Post by **Rand Anderson** » 9 May 2005 12:19 pm

the microcube uses roland's COSM modelling technology. that is where the compression is coming in. i believe the sample rate is 44.1 16 bit on that unit. tis why i dont care much for modelling amps. i do use a roland gp-100 for the studio direct on occasion. i prefer the COSM to the line6 POD stuff.

i went thru 10 blackface deluxes.
i settled on a 1966. amazing how tone can vary because of component tolerances +-

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Zumsteel D10 - Hilton, ProfexII, Nashville400, Peterson VS2

Paul Arntson · Post by **Paul Arntson** » 9 May 2005 7:15 pm

I should correct myself. I now think maybe it is a bit of a noise gate. Maybe there is some comression there too. But that noise gate sure does make the quiet spots quiet.
I love that little amp, but I won't ever use a compressor pedal in front of it again.
It sounds great with my franken tele, too.