What's the "breaking point" with power?

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 6 May 2005 7:49 am

I recently went through the process of putting together a rack mount rig with speaker cabinets. Prior to finally pulling the trigger, I solicited advice from various folks on the forum. I recieved alot of mixed answers, as one might expect. The most significant element always seemed to be POWER. I understand the necessity of ample watts for steel guitar, but is there a cut off point? I ended up deciding on 145 watts/channel at 8 ohms; PSG>Hilton Pedal>Blue Tube II preamp>Lexicon MPX 110 through BT II effects loop>Crown XLS 202 power amp> 2 JBL E130-8 cabs. I have enough power to peel paint! Very good clarity, great sound, very versatile. How much power is enough?

It seems to me that somewhere in the scheme of things that we should have a "range" that is pretty well defined. When I started this, I didn't realize how many different set ups were really being used. But, the real question is concerning power. This has really been bugging me alot. Maybe, like with most things, there is not a good answer; just different opinions. Thanks!

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 6 May 2005 8:09 am

The Stereo Steel unit is 200W per side @ 8ohms, 300 per @ 4Ohms.

FWIW, I'm currently using 8ohm cabs and never seem to have to crack it much past what I would concider Idle'ing.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 6 May 2005 8:59 am

Six-string guitar players often get by with less than 50 watts because the distortion from over-driving the circuit is considered a desirable part of their sound. Most of us playing PSG are looking for clean power at the same sound pressure levels and that drives the power numbers up in a hurry.

I have used quite a few different power amps with my rack rigs over the years, all of them on large stages at one time or another, all of them at 8 ohms with JBL D130F 15" in separate cabs or Yamaha Series IV 2-way wedges.

The best sound, hands-down, was from a Crown DC300 at 175 watts into 8 ohms per channel, but it was too big and heavy to use for long.

The Crown D75 at about 70 watts per side into 8 ohms sounded fine for practice and small clubs if I used two cabs in stereo but couldn't really keep up on larger stages.

Several smaller amps that I have used (Biamp TC60, SAE P50, Carver ZR500) can be mono-strapped to provide about 200 watts into a single 8 ohm load. This proved to be the balance point for me, small size, light weight and enough oomph to handle most any show.

My current rig is an old Randall Steel Man amp which delivers about 175 watts into a 4 ohm JBL, which is just enough to keep up with those loud guitar and keyboard players. The NV400 is very similar to the Randall in total wattage and SPL, as are the Evans and the Webb.

Regardless of whether you are running a rack rig or a dedicated guitar amp, for good clean PSG power anything less than 200 watts seems to come up short sooner or later, but more than 300 watts is just so much useless weight to carry around.

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<img align=right src="http://www.pdxaudio.com/dgsept03.jpg" width="114 height="114">Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
Pickin', etc.

1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, Randall Steel Man 500, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 6 May 2005 9:10 am

Like many questions on the forum, how much power is debateable.

Most of us do not really play "loud" but you need extra power for "headroom", transient note peaks, for when you want to sustain a note and use the volume pedal to help sustain it, etc.

The efficiency of your speakers and/or speaker enclosures will affect how much volume you can get from an amp.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 6 May 2005 11:01 am

I run 2 12s with 90w a side in the same cab.
I DON'T want anything louder.

IF I need louder I move it closer and mic the cab.

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 6 May 2005 12:05 pm

OK, if I defined HEADROOM, I would consider it freeboard power, or additional capacity if needed. So, for my lack of an understanding of "headroom", how would you define it? Not to be a smart a$$, but how much headroom is needed?

Suppose you wanted to design cabinets for the steel community, small, aesthetically appealing, reasonable price, quality speakers, with a limited speaker choice, how would you set the limits? I like the old JBL's, the new Weber's and others. However, the JBL's that I would choose are used, the Weber's may not have the power ratings, then the other choices just don't quite perform to these speakers. What would you try to offer that was really the BEST cab/speaker combination? The more power, the speaker selection and sound seems to be comprimised. I would appreciate your thoughts.

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 6 May 2005 1:04 pm

I like a tube amp for tone. But more weight is the drawback. However, I bought a Peavey Stereo 50/50 tube head. I installed 8 new JJ EL84 power tubes in it. And new Sovtek 12AX7LPS and Electro-Harmonix 12AT7's in the preamp stage. I can plug my rack or a Genesis3 into the front of it. Running a BW 1501 each side. It's a very versatile head with unbelievable clean power. Plenty of power for the average size club.
My other option is two session 400s with upgrade kits. Depends on the gig.
DD

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 May 2005 3:03 pm

Most pedal steelers attack their notes with the volume pedal only 1/4 to 1/3 on, the rest being reserved for stustain. So right there you need an amp 3 or 4 times more powerful than a guitar player. Also, playing with finger picks and a bar is quieter than using a flat pick and holding strings hard against the frets. Finally, as mentioned above, we don't want to be playing an amp in its maxed-out distorting range. Put all that together and a steeler needs an amp 4 to 8 times as powerful as the guitar players he plays with (remember, in order to sound a notch louder to our ears, you have to double the power). Guitar players and sound men never understand this. If they discover how big your amp is, they think you want all that power to play louder than anyone else. But you really need it just to keep up and have plenty of sustain with your volume pedal.

I play with one loud group in which the guitarists have 25 watt amps - but they play them maxed out. My NV400 with 200 ss watts was not loud enough for me to keep up, nor was a Twin with 135 tube watts. Probably a NV 1000 at 300 watts would have been adequate. I prefer tubes, so I got a 180 watt Super Twin (in a head cabinet to keep the weight manageable). This gets me about as loud as I would ever want to be on stage. If that is ever not enough, I presume I'll be somewhere that will be able to mike me through the PA. But a lot of small rock clubs I play in don't expect to mike the guitar amps, so I need the Super Twin.

Of course I play sometimes with quieter groups, and I get by with a Dual Showman with 100 tube watts, and could probably do with a NV112 (if I didn't prefer tubes). So I would say David G. has the range about right: 200-300 ss watts, or 100 to 200 tube watts.

Because steelers do not attack their notes with the top volume of their amp, they can get by with speakers rated below the wattage of the amp (just don't ever let a guitar player use it). JBL D130s are really only good for about 60 watts for guitar players. But steelers can use them fairly safely with 100 watt amps. With a 200 watt or bigger amp, you need to split the load between two JBLs, or get Black Widows or some other heavy duty speaker.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 06 May 2005 at 04:12 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 May 2005 3:27 pm

Not to be a smart a$$, but how much headroom is needed?

Tim, the critical element as far as power requirement depends on the kind of tone you like to use. Hi frequencies take very little power to reproduce at astounding levels. Low frequencies, on the other hand, take gobs and gobs of power. As an example, Ralph Mooney or Tom Brumley playing through an old B/F Twin Reverb (about 70 watts) sounded every bit as loud as Curly Chalker playing through 2 Session 500's (about 500 watts total). The difference was the tone settings (frequencies) they were emphasizing. Providing your tone settings are about normal for today's sounds (lots of mid range, and lower bass and treble settings), your 145 watts/channel will be plenty. Should you play with lots of treble, you could get by with less. If you played lots of "punchy" Chalker-type C6th, you might need a little more for really big venues.

But offhand, I'd say your power's fine.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 6 May 2005 11:44 pm

Can I get that in a package that the wife can carry for me, Bob?

Harold Dye · Post by **Harold Dye** » 7 May 2005 2:23 am

Bob,
In order to play stereo would two of the units be necessary? Also which of the units would be best...the basic 20KW or the slightly larger 50KW?

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 7 May 2005 4:19 am

Can these units be purchased with the helicopter? The package would be great for playing the fair circuit. Or, any outdoor gig.
DD