Why so loud ?

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 7 Apr 2005 9:36 am

It seems crazy to me that steel players play so loud on stage. So many of the amp threads are about the need for massive amounts of headroom.

It seems to me that the sound of the steel is very directional. More of the audience will hear you if you play at a reasonable level on stage and bleed your signal into the PA rather than pushing the room with your stage amp. If I play to loud on stage to be in the PA then about 15 feet out front of my amp the main people hearing me are the ones stuck in that shrill 2K beam that shoots straight out.

I try to keep stage levels as low as possible because once the air gets saturated it gets difficult tell whats going on. To much sound pressure on stage turns all the tonal and pitch colors into grey mush to my ears.

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Bob
intonation help

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 7 Apr 2005 10:00 am

that shrill 2K beam that shoots straight out

Actually, what hurts is in the 2k to 4k region. 85dB SPL at 4K will begin to make your eye teeth hurt.[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 07 April 2005 at 11:34 AM.]

Al Carmichael · Post by **Al Carmichael** » 7 Apr 2005 10:02 am

Bob--I agree in general. In this age of high powered amps and PA's, the stage volume has crept up and its real easy to crank that 400 watt amp. In club settings, I think that high volume is a detriment to the music and can cause hearing damage. Just check out the DB chart and how long it takes to sustain hearing damage above 90db.

Where the extra power is needed is when the stage is set up for a large concert. When the side fills are blasting the kick, snare and bass back at the band and all the monitors are cranked, a small amp can't even keep up with that degree of sound. A loud steel amp becomes a necessity in those situations.

One band I worked in had a great solution. We ran our amps at low stage volumes, miced them up, and we each ran a separate monitor feed back so we could get a good blend. It cut down on the stage volume 50% and allowed us to get a better mix in the mains.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 7 Apr 2005 11:30 am

Al,
I'm lucky in that most bands I play with understand how to keep the volume down on stage. If I get stuck playing with knuckleheads that play too loud I set up to the side of the stage and get ALL monitors as far away from me as possible. If one is near me I unplug it or face it at the audience. Then I put in my ear molds. Once I get the sound pressure down to a reasonable level in my own ears I am able to focus on whatever I need to to play.
If some deaf/retarded guitar player blasts his amp at me till I can't think straight I play as little as possible and think about how much money I'm making. If its not enough to put up with that crap I'm busy next time they call.

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Bob
intonation help

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 7 Apr 2005 11:45 am

Maybe loudliness is next to manliness meaning that some guys play loud to compensate for a feeling of inadequacy in other areas.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 7 Apr 2005 11:48 am

The best reinforced sound will ALWAYS be achieved when the stage volume is relatively low and the audience is primarily served by the sound system's main speakers. This is true for several reasons:

1) Musicians can hear themselves and each other better
2) Singers can hear themselvesa and each other better
3) Individual microphones on stage are not full of bleed from all the other noise on stage - try getting a good vocal sound when the vocal mic is already getting hit with 105db of guitars, bass and cymbals (and then they complain to the sound man that they can't hear the vocals in the monitors, can they fix it)!
4) It leads to an atmosphere of cooperation and enthusiasm rather than one of competition and antagonism amongst the musicians.

I have provided professional sound services to all sorts of acts over the past twenty-five years (check out my website below), and the truly great artists - note that I didn't say "famous acts," there IS a difference - always play at something resembling a conversational level. Tony Bennett sang a song with the sound system turned completely off once just to show that in a good hall 3000 people could hear him and his piano trio without any PA at all, once they shut their own mouths and paid attention!

A good artist at the sound console can make wonderful things happen if given something to work with, but once the band gets too loud, there's really nothing left to do but reach for the infamous "SUCK" knob to try and suck some of the extra volume out of the room. Unfortunately, contrary to popular belief, "SUCK" knobs don't really exist!

Bottom line - if a band can't turn down when asked, it's my last show with them.

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<img align=right src="http://www.pdxaudio.com/dgsept03.jpg" width="114 height="114">Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
Pickin', etc.

1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, Randall Steel Man 500, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion
[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 07 April 2005 at 01:05 PM.]

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 7 Apr 2005 1:44 pm

It sure would be a perfect world if all drummers and bass players could accept that those two instruments normally assume a supporting role rather than being lead instruments. In my limited experience too much stage volume is almost always the result of a drummer who gets carried away with things, quickly followed by a bass player who's not about to be outdone. Under those conditions everyone else has to crank up to be able to hear themselves and the overall sound quality goes right out the window. This bothers me a lot more since I started playing steel since, for obvious reasons, you really need to be able to hear your own instrument really well or you'll sound bloody awful.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 7 Apr 2005 2:08 pm

Personally, I normally hate loud stage volumes, and believe me, I've been in some loud bands. I agree that the drummer most often sets the stage volume. It also depends on the musical context. Heavy rock, southern rock, metal, and even a lot of contemporary blues (and these days, a lot of so-called 'country' music sounds like a mix of all these), is essentially a bottom-heavy dance music, so that's what dominates. The mentality is "if you can't feel it pounding in your chest, then it's not loud enough".

In this situation, guitar and especially steel players need to have insane amounts of power just to hear themselves onstage.

Remember also that a lot of musicians who have been doing this for a while are essentially deaf. In addition, playing real loud can cover up technique problems. I'm real lucky that the guys I'm playing with now (all young, between 21 and 26) play at a reasonable volume, even the drummer! But we play no 'dance clubs' either. If we did, I'd have to drag out my LTD 400 and crank 'er up. No plans for that.

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 7 Apr 2005 2:34 pm

I agree with all the responses, but...be honest....what would you do if your fellow musicians in the audience said
"We can't hear the steel!!"

Michael Hillman · Post by **Michael Hillman** » 7 Apr 2005 4:07 pm

Had the pleasure of watching Ray Price in a small venue a couple of weeks ago. This is probably the 5th or 6th time in the past 10 years I've seen him and his band perform, I'm always dazzled by the quality of both he and his band's performance. They are tastefully quiet, and he used 9 band members. After his son performed 3 songs, Ray came out, and, after his first song asked the sound guy to turn the stage monitors off completely. I've heard a lot of other groups in that same small room, and a few that played way too loud. A pleasure to see the old master and all of his band do a flawless performance at such a comfortable sound level. and no on stage monitors. The steel was sweet, and always "just right"

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 7 Apr 2005 6:50 pm

Tony - honestly, at this point, I ask the rest of band to turn down. Really.

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 7 Apr 2005 8:40 pm

I'm with you Bob.... music is supposed to be about listening. If you can't hear the other players, how can you respond to what is going on. The greatest thing about performing, for me, is the give and take with the rest of the band. Music is a real time, creative act.... and each performance is unique. I am lucky enough to be able to pick and choose my gigs, and I don't work with people who don't listen.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 8 Apr 2005 1:18 am

I think when you play "quieter" it forces people to actually listen closer cuz maybe they can't really hear it all that well. That
is, of course, if they're interested in the first place to listen.

When sound is blasted at people, I think some mechanism goes off where they hear it all right, but the real listening is lost.
Maybe too much brain activity is focused on 'fighting' off the loudness and the actual listening part takes a back seat.

Just some thoughts.

cf

Andy Zynda · Post by **Andy Zynda** » 8 Apr 2005 5:22 am

Regarding the "icepick in the ear" thing when you're right on the "beam" of your speakers:
Ted Weber makes an apparatus called a Beam Blocker. It's an appliance that mounts directly in front of dead center of your speaker(s), just behind the grill cloth. The effect is to block the dead-on beaming hi's, while dispersing them in an even spread along with the rest of the speakers frequencies.
They work great, and they're pretty inexpensive.
2 cents,
-andy-
(and I personally think that the STEEL is almost NEVER loud enough in live settings)

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 8 Apr 2005 5:51 am

I've been in numerous situations where the
only thing the band puts in the PA & monitors
is the vocals. That's it...so you're on your
own when it comes to getting heard way out in
the middle of the crowd. I've heard many
steelers in this same situation...and they get
lost because the other players get carried
away. Especially around the 2nd or 3rd set.

Ken Thompson · Post by **Ken Thompson** » 8 Apr 2005 7:20 am

Does anyone know if it is possible to copy your comments onto an email? I want to send them to members of our band. You are reinforcing things that I try to explain to them and do it in a much better way. Anyone with ideas, please let me know.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 8 Apr 2005 7:51 am

Let me start by saying I think the volume in clubs down here is way too loud.I'm not talking about the animal clubs.Haven't played those since I was a kid.So I can't say.I'm talking about the places where the people 40 and under go.When is the last time you where in one of these places and the steel was too loud?? In most cases you'll have to listen close to even hear it.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 8 Apr 2005 8:00 am

Some players are just too loud, but there are other reasons for requiring a big amp. Understanding the real need for a specific wattage amplifier requires that you understand the workings of different frequencies of sound.

Most all amps today have passive tone controls, and that necessitates having much more wattage than necessary to provide the required volume levels at specific frequencies. Ten watts of audio at 2khz or above can be painful, but 10 watts of audio at 50hz is quite bearable. Put quite simply, if you use a lot of highs, you don't need lots of watts. But if you like a lot of lower frequencies (a la Curly Chalker), it takes hundreds of watts to work a good-sized room.

Of course, all the above applies only to someone who has that understanding. It was rock and rollers that gave us the predeliction for deafening volumes at all frequencies. It was simply a case of "We can't play good enough to be noticed, so we'll play loud enough to be noticed."

Those who knew nothing about taste and musical ability were duly impressed with simply "loud" music, so I guess their strategy worked. And, it continues to work at concerts today.

Go figure.

Bobby Sparks · Post by **Bobby Sparks** » 8 Apr 2005 8:06 am

Ken,

You have e-mail.

BNS

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 8 Apr 2005 8:16 am

Ken,
Not sure if you're all set with the email,
but just click on FILE/SEND on your browser.

You can send either the link or the page. Or print out a bunch of copies and hand it them in person.

cf

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 8 Apr 2005 9:44 am

..It leads to an atmosphere of cooperation and enthusiasm rather than one of competition and antagonism amongst the musicians..

Well, after more than a quarter century of the former, that's a turn I'm not willing to experiment with at this point...

EJL

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 8 Apr 2005 9:49 am

Very concise post, Donny. The funny thing is, over the past 25 years I have worked with some screamin' loud rock bands but Hank, Jr. is still in my experience the "loudest working man in show business."

When faced with a crowd or venue that requires high sound pressure levels, I like to have the high frequencies at a level one can talk over but let the lows flap yer pants legs for ya. Nobody ever got ear damage from 105db of low end, but the highs (yep, especially that 2KHz - 4KHz range) at 90db are another thing entirely.[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 08 April 2005 at 10:53 AM.]

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 8 Apr 2005 9:50 am

Bill Stafford and Ricky Davis have really low stage volumes. I'm playing in a trio tonite at a no-smoke no-booze venue, so the volume will be low.

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Drew Howard - website - Fessy D-10 8/8, Magnatone S-8, N400's, BOSS RV-3

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 8 Apr 2005 12:36 pm

Dave, in my book, Hank Jr. usually is a "screaming rocker"!

"Rolling Corn-Pones"?[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 08 April 2005 at 02:02 PM.]

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 8 Apr 2005 9:45 pm

mebbe he just likes it that way....