Reverb Effects

Steve Dodson · Post by **Steve Dodson** » 26 Feb 2005 8:32 am

What do you guys think is the better Reverb Effects unit for Steel. Lexicon MPX 110 Alesis Midiverb 4 Boss RV-5?

Steve

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 26 Feb 2005 11:06 am

I imagine somebody else can address your question directly but personally I don't really care for any of these, Steve.

Hands down my choices for outboard PSG reverb would be the Yamaha REV7 ($300 or less, used) "Strings" patch with 100ms of predelay; or the Lexicon PCM70 ($500 - $800, used) which is a MUCH more versatile (and complex) effects unit - for this one I have developed several room and plate reverb settings designed for PSG.

Both of these units are regularly available in good pro sound stores or on eBay. Bonus feature is that either of these will still have some monetary value long after the Boss, Alesis, etc. will be fit only for the Goodwill bin.

Other units worthy of serious examination are:

TC Electronics M-One (about $300 new) which is a stereo unit with some great reverb sounds and the ability to split the unit into two mono effects devices (you want reverb AND delay? A parametric EQ and reverb? Maybe a compressor/reverb combo? Maybe use one mono reverb for your steel and another for the PA) and patch them separatly or in series internally.

Lexicon PCM60 - a vintage unit with minimal controls and absolutely the sweetest sound, $200 - $300 used on eBay all the time.

The H3000 series Eventide Harmonizers -- if you want to spend some money and get the most horsepower available ($650 - $1200 used), this last choice might be overkill but there are things that they can do that probably shouldn't even be legal - not only great reverb but delays, flanging, chorusing, doubling (my favorite), pitch shifting and more. A mandatory item for someone wanting to build the ultimate rack system.

When choosing an effects device you have to consider price, availablity, ease of use, size/weight, flexibility of features and sound quality. The PCM 70 (a pro audio tool designed to be awesome to use) has vastly more options available to tweek your sound than the MPX series (a "music industry" product designed to be cheap to manufacture). The bottom line is, you try out whatever you can get your hands on and decide what works best FOR YOU.

How's THAT for not answering our question?[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 26 February 2005 at 11:28 AM.]

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 26 Feb 2005 3:29 pm

I can only say that after trying the Lexicon 110, I am impressed. I think it sounds great. I use the delay and "tap" in the delay time.
I also use the chorus and flange with delay.
It is extremely quiet compared to other effects I have used.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 26 Feb 2005 5:02 pm

Dave, PCM-70 is 19 or 20 years old, and PCM-60 is a couple of years older than that. How can old designs and old hardware still be competitive today, after all the advances in chip technology, programming, and price?

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 26 Feb 2005 6:12 pm

Here's the deal, Earnest:

Yes, there has been a great deal of progress in chip technology, programming, etc. since these products were developed, but for the most part the research has gone into products that DO MORE and COST LESS, but they don't necessarily do what they do BETTER. In fact, they generally don't.

Lexicon, TC Electronics, Sony, Eventide and Yamaha all have current products on the market that take advantage of the high-end research and programming advances made over the past two decades but they will cost more than a typical musician can spend, some of them more than a new D10 steel.

The Lexicon MPX series, Alesis, Boss, Peavey, Behringer, etc. units are all music industry products designed primarily for lowest cost of manufacture in pursuit of higher market share. As such, one has very little in the way of parameter control available and must live with what some factory programmer thought sounded cool.

The PCM 60 and PCM 70 are professional quality tools designed for highest performance. Even the REV7 in its day was considered a top-grade studio tool. As used items, they still represent a better value feature per dollar than the new MI stuff on the shelf at your local music store, with the one notable exception being the TC M-One, IMHO.

You will still find the PCM 70 in thousands of the finest studios, remote trucks, pro sound systems, worldwide. You will find none of that other stuff.

Consider the reverb parameters available to the user with EVERY REVERB PROGRAM in the PCM70 -- to list a few:

Room/Plate Size; Predelay; Chorusing; Low Frequency Run Time; Mid Frequency Run Time; LF Stop Time; MF Stop Time; Crossover Frequency between the above mentioned LF and MF; High Frequency Roll-Off Point; Gate Time; Reverb Attack; Reverb Diffusion; Reflection Definition; not to mention the Multiple Left and Right Reflections (Delays) that one can add into the mix if desired. When you are done creating the sound you want you can even link any parameters you like (and scalable in relationship to each other) for ease of control over multiple aspects of the program via front panel knob or MIDI commands.

While there is nothing wrong with using whatever you like and feel that you can afford, there is simply no comparison between this sort of tool and the MI units mentioned at the start of this thread.

Frankly, I really like the sound of an old Brown-Face Fender Reverb Spring tank. Talk about an OLD design, IC chips and algorithms were still far in the future when that one was turned out!

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 26 February 2005 at 07:09 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 26 Feb 2005 6:56 pm

Dave,
I think you'll find that the MPX-110 has exactly the same Lexchip technology used in the PCM-81 and 91. The reverb algorithms are chip based and are shared by the entire product line. There are other features that are incorporated into the higher priced products, but the basic reverb is pretty much the same. I am very impressed with my 110. And, yes, I've used a lot of high end studio stuff.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 26 Feb 2005 7:14 pm

Yes, Larry, the chips and algorithms are the same, but the control over the parameters is non-existant relative to what one can do with the PCM series gear. I am not arguing with the chips and algorithms, only the fact that one cannot fine-tune them on the MI products. There is so much that can be done to improve reverb sound for an instrument with pre-delay alone.

I am not putting down the MPX stuff, it is flat out miraculous compared to what we used to have available and inexpensive to boot. I am simply saying that the used pro gear is available for the same prices that folks are paying for the MI stuff and the rewards for going that route are considerable and worthy of note.

dg[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 26 February 2005 at 07:16 PM.]

David Higginbotham · Post by **David Higginbotham** » 26 Feb 2005 7:22 pm

For those who haven't tried one, the T.C. Electronic M-300 is also a fantastic unit. New $200 and ebay around $140.
Dave

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BMI S-12 8&5, Webb 614-E, Nashville 112

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 26 Feb 2005 9:16 pm

Please explain pre-delay.

Thanks.

Lee, from South Texas

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 27 Feb 2005 2:35 am

I have a Lexicon MPX 110 and I'm quite happy with the sound. There are 16 slots available to store your own settings, and I find that if I go through, find a good sound and store it, it usually ends up being almost exactly like some other sound I've stored. In other words, the reverb can be tweaked to sound really good to me, as can the reverb/chorus combo (you can control the blend between the two, as well as the blend of those with the straight signal). I like to fool with the echo stuff too, as a practice aid for timing, harmony and intonation too - those clams really stand out when you've got to hear them over and over again!

However, I do understand what Dave G. is saying - the MPX 110 has an "Adjust" knob that according to the manual "Controls the most relevant parameters for the selected program variation." In other words, some guy at Lexicon decided what sounds best for you and you don't get to (or have to) tweak every little thing yourself.

It's analagous to drum machines - the cheap modern ones have a variety of good-sounding presets that handle most situations, but woe to the dude who tries to warp out past the presets. Due to my inveterate addiction to Indian music, I like to play in 7's, 10's and other odd time signatures with a hoked-up tabla sound, and the little modern wonder boxes just won't comply. Based on a recommendation from *DANGEROUS LUNATIC* Mike Perlowin, I bought an old, state-of-the-art-circa-1988 Yamaha RX7 off of Ebay for $55 and it can do everything I want. No presets - you have to build every aspect of every track - but damn, it boogies.

I guess the complexity of what you like to use depends on how much time you like to spend twiddling "parameters." Vs. actually playing.

David Higginbotham · Post by **David Higginbotham** » 27 Feb 2005 7:56 am

Lee, a pre delay is simply a delay time before the "reverberations" begin. Is that a word and did I spell it right

Dave

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BMI S-12 8&5, Webb 614-E, Nashville 112

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 27 Feb 2005 8:35 am

Spring reverb has no predelay. To me, that's the sound I go for -- just eliminating the noisy springs. It's not rocket science. If you run a studio you need to be able to tweak a lot of these parameters -- especially for the total mix. But in a bar? COME ON.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 27 Feb 2005 1:01 pm

Thanks, David. That's what I suspected.

Lee

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 27 Feb 2005 6:44 pm

I helped build a 24-track studio in 1980 that at first used a small Ecoplate II plate reverb, then bought a Lexicon 224. I did a search for the Lex and found only one online (Google, and in Italy no less). There are a few Ecoplate IIs floating around, but no pics I could find. It's all that outdated. Gads, I feel old.

Here is the 224, in all its glory: http://www.screenstudio.it/usato/lexicon224po.htm I loved it. I thought it was very easy to use and sounded great. It did roll off its response very sharply at 8kHz, though. But that gave it a mellow, realistic sound, I thought.

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Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | MSA U12 | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?
[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 27 February 2005 at 06:47 PM.]

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 28 Feb 2005 10:18 am

The Lex 224 is an awesome unit and still sought after by studio buffs. In particular the remote keypad is very handy when it's time to change sounds for different styles of music, strange sounding stages, etc.

On another note - this is for Lee - by extending the predelay (yes, the interval between the original dry sound and the onset of reverb) one can get a more articulate sound - the brief space between the original note and the reverb helps to add clarity, particularly on faster runs.

Larry Bell - I now RECORD exclusively with the Yamaha REV7 "Strings" patch and 100 ms of predelay - it has a silky smoothness and transparency that I have not been able to match with anything else and the predelay allows the tone of the guitar to come to the front, as it were. I generally take a good delay into the studio as well, though I don't always use it. The advantage of units such as the REV7 and the PCM70 is the same advantage of an amp with more than two tone knobs - you can get the precise sound you want if you know how to use the controls.

OTHERWISE I am very happy to play with with the internal Accutronics Model 9 (three long springs) "long decay" spring that I installed in my Randall Steelman. I bought it direct from Acoustic Enhancements website to replace the amp's original two-spring tank and it is absoutely perfect for the PSG. I tried using a delay with it but it sounded fine by itself and now the delay sits in the corner waiting for some other use.

After twenty years or so of packin' a rack system around I am real glad to have it back down to a guitar, a seat and a (smallish) amp.[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 28 February 2005 at 10:23 AM.]

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 28 Feb 2005 8:01 pm

Thanks Dave and David. I have an inexpensive rack-mount digital effects processor that I use with my Lexicon MPX-100. This unit is a Phonic Model DFX256. It has lots of presets, but nothing is "tweakable"; however, one of the HALL reverbs has the following specs:

Decay 3.5 sec
Predelay 112 ms
Damping 2

It sounds very, very sweet. The initial pluck of the string is nice and distinct and then the reverb kicks in.

Now, tell me about damping.

Also, many of the reverb settings have EQ built into them, such as LPF 4.47K. I'm guessing LPF stands for Low Pass Filter. Is this EQ applied only to the decaying note?

Lee

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 28 Feb 2005 10:05 pm

Lee, "Damping" is a word that some programmer decided to use to describe some aspect of the reverberation algorithm on your device but you will have to read the manual to know what it means "this time." It is not a technical term normally used in this context. I would imagine (but cannot be certain) that it has to do with the suppression of high frequency content or perhaps the articulation of individual reflections in a given program. Some call this latter "definition" or "diffusion" and some units feature a definition AND a diffusion parameter.

LPF is indeed "Low Pass Filter" and generally refers to the high end rolloff of the reverberated signal, sometimes it is applied to the dry signal BEFORE the effect as a high end rolloff, but sometimes it is applied to the effect itself as a gradual decrease in high frequency reverb time. Again, better run to the equipment owner's manual for the real scoop on this one.

The "Decay" figure is a pretty simplified number to try to describe something pretty complex. A given "decay" time could be heavy on the bass, have NO bass, describe a short burst on reverb followed by a very long tail or just the opposite. One unit at 2.0 seconds might actually sound longer than another set at 4.0 seconds.

Reverberation is far too complex a phenomena to distill into three or four (or even ten) parameters, thus the continued appeal of the Lexicon 224, PCM 70/80/81/90/91, Eventide Ultra-Harmonizer, Yamaha SPX990, etc. for those who work in this realm. The bottom line is, we are using technology to help us generate an ambiance which will stimulate an emotional response in the listener (or player).

There are whole books already written on this subject and I don't want this post to turn into another one so I'll stop now. Feel free to email me if you desire more information, I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.

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<img align=right src="http://www.pdxaudio.com/dgsept03.jpg" width="114 height="114">Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
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