How do you record?

Sigi Meissner · Post by **Sigi Meissner** » 10 Nov 2004 1:25 am

Sorry guys, this question was put already a thousend times. Maybe someone knows a thread to this topic:
It's the very first time I want to record my playing. Our Band needs a new Demo. I had no better idea than to go directly with a Neuman
mic with about 1 feet distanc in front of
may Nash 400 into a fostex multitracker. (without reverb and effects) But after adding the effects from the multi tracker it sounds pretty flat. The fat sound of my emmons is gone. Is there a min. level of Vol. the Nash needs to get best results?
Any Ideas?

Emmons Legrande II D 8&6, Mullen D 8&4, Nash 400, Hilton VP
Digitech ME 7

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 10 Nov 2004 2:54 am

Sigi, first off, the mic is too far from the amp..that in itself will allow for some lack of quality. Maybe 2" off the speaker grill will do the trick..These condensor mics like hot signals without too much air between the source and the diagphram. If you happen to have a Shure 57 sittin' around try using that as well.

There are many many reasons why something ends up recorded with no dynamics..mic placement is just one of them.

Now, from where I come from I record Steel direct all the time and I use a digital mutitracker where I have written input patches specifially for the Steel. I have written patches that have 4 band parametric EQ, slap delay and a small amount of compression..I EQ pretty much the same as I would set my N400, I use about 290 ms of single slap delay and a minimal amount of compression. I do record dry and add the effect patchs to the recorded signal, I do not record with effects.

I also do use a low end ART Dual 12ax7 tube preamp on the input of the digital multitracker for everything.. Best $99 I ever spent..

One other point..when you record digital, use -6db as the reference, not 0db like analog, and not less than -6 db. Digital signal strength is a very stange beast, but it can be conqured.

Now on the other side , the folks that record live with amps probably have a good set of rules for board EQ and patches as well. The Neuman is a great mic, record everything dry with the recorder EQ's set pretty much flat with your amp being the initial point of EQ.

You're gonna have to experiment to find the final result which is to your liking..

The main reason I record direct is so that I don't have to set up mics and amps..I can now pretty much record on a moments notice..and apply effect patches in seconds at will.

and by the way, I am using the 24 bit Yamaha AW2816 recorder which uses the Yamaha OS2 system..

We recently did a 4 song demo here at the house for our band. Everything was recorded thru amps..except for the final Steel tracks which I added at the very end on top of the completed tracks.

There's no real right way or wrong way..it's the end that counts. But I will say that before I started this particualar project of recording the full band, I read a few different books on recording processes and
engineering to see what others were doing , how they were doing it and why..

we have some serious pro engineers here on this forum, hopefully they will chime in..

good luck

t<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 10 November 2004 at 04:08 AM.]</p></FONT>

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 10 Nov 2004 10:29 am

I'm curious as to which model of Neuman mic you used? Your amp should be loud when recording. You could also try a Sennheiser 421 or an Shure SM 57 right on the grille. Depends what you're after

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 10 Nov 2004 10:56 am

Being that a Nash 400 is a solid state amp, it doesn't really have a "sweet spot", does it? It shouldn't have to be CRANKED to get its optimal sound, right? -GV

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 10 Nov 2004 1:15 pm

I think that it has to do more with the speaker, than the amp. A Black Widow is made to be played quite loud, so I think it definitely has a sweet spot. I've always had the best results when the amp is about halfway up. Master full up and the pre about half, which might seem insanely loud when you are sitting beside it in a little room, but has the most punch and balance of lows and highs when listening back to the recording. Same thing goes for Marshalls.

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 10 Nov 2004 11:34 pm

All speakers have sweet spots. When you close-mic an amp, you will get a different sound according to which part of the speaker is closest to the mic.
Mostly you find that about an inch in from the edge of the cone sounds best, though the bottom edge and the top edge often sound different too. The axis- the direction the mic is pointed relative to the speaker,is also important.
Please don't be insulted if I just politely remind you that a Neumann has a right and wrong way round.
The further away from the speaker the mic is, the more important to have the whole rig in a room that sounds good in itself, and to have the amp in a good sounding place in the room.

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Cheers!
Dave

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 11 Nov 2004 2:14 am

I'm thinking the mic placement is only one small part of the FLAT overall sound..the variables and unknowns are numerous here..

t

George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 11 Nov 2004 4:06 am

How about using a Black Box as a direct box and going straight out to the recorder? I know an amp can be a big part of your sound, so I guess it would just depend on what sound you are after. You could tweak the sound and add effects during mix down.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 11 Nov 2004 7:15 am

One problem with going direct from a Black Box is that the signal still needs to be "voiced". The Black Box has no eq shaping in it. A preamp or amp will give you that musical midrange dip, bass boost, and general tone shaping ability. The Black Box has shown itself to be beneficial in the recording chain, but I'd say you still want to send it thru a preamp. ... Well another option would be to record direct with the BB, but once it's recorded, you can always use an EQ in the mixing process to create the voicing. Try a bass boost, a midrange dip around 550Hz-700Hz, and dial in treble to taste. I've never done it that way, but it may work ok.

Personally I'm an advocate of miking an amp. To me, guitar or steel needs to pass thru an amp and a guitar speaker to really take on the right sound. Place an SM57 somewhere near the speaker, listen for the sweet spot, and go with that. It's still the industry standard for recording guitar amps. Direct recording can sometimes lose depth and realism and can also be hard to place in a mix naturally. When the sound passes thru an amp and speaker, something about the speaker voicing and moving thru the air seems to make it all come together. I consider the amp and speaker to be part of the instrument itself.

Brad Sarno

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 11 Nov 2004 7:35 am

My experience with miking an amp, and we just had this experiment yesterday, is that the mike should be right up against the grillcloth, but the distance from the dust cap will determine "presence." The closer the mike was to the center of the speaker, the fewer highs we received. The engineer was experimenting with placement, but I've always felt the best sound was with an SM57 aimed about 2" from the edge of the speaker. Ultimately that's where he left the mike. The amp was a Webb 614-GP with a JBL E-130.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 11 Nov 2004 9:13 am

You could also go straight in from the Black Box and use the board EQ while tracking, if you liked the sound; but as Brad says, the ultimate "analog" EQ (and to some extent FX) for electric guitars, including steels, seems to involve the amp - air - mic chain, and possibly the room.

I have even found that true for live sound: I tried going from BB into the board, but even though I am really primarily heard only through the mains either way, we couldn't get a sound anyone liked as well direct as when we put a mike on my amp (which also serves as a much more supportive monitor, live or in recording, than getting something back from the board).

Then, besides mic position, there's mic selection....

Sigi Meissner · Post by **Sigi Meissner** » 12 Nov 2004 1:43 am

Thanks a lot for your great comments.
>In the meantime my sound on the tracker has improved very much By doing only two things
different: finding the sweet spot and placing the mic much closer to the grille.
the only problem is now the sweet spot is that lout I can't hear the band in the headpohones anymore. Maybe I will have to place the amp 2 floors down in the cellar
while recording in the bedroom.
Does a 30 m long cable causes signal lost?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 Nov 2004 8:04 am

Sig, your last comment is the way to do it. It is common for the player to sit in the sound-proof control room and listen to himself through earphones mixed with the other tracks, while the amp/speaker is in another room at full volume. One home studio I was at recently had the control room in a room built onto a garage. The amp was put out in the garage. The guy didn't even close the outside garage door, so the neighbors got an earful of whatever single track was being recorded.