Live Set-up

Tim Tweedale · Post by **Tim Tweedale** » 5 Oct 2004 10:34 am

What is your live set up like for an average sized bar - 150 - 200 people? Do you D.I. your steel and mic your amp? How loud do you like to be in the monitors? Playing live, I am having some trouble hearing my steel amongst loud drums and electric guitar.

-Tim

Ken Thompson · Post by **Ken Thompson** » 5 Oct 2004 10:46 am

I run direct line out of my N 112 to our Mackie system. I set the amp right beside me and use it as a monitor. I sometimes have difficulty with the loud drums, even with a drum shield, but basically I can hear it fine. Love the N112.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 Oct 2004 11:01 am

I've never heard a system monitor yet that I could stand the tone of my steel or regular guitar in. In a small club I don't care if they run me through the system or not, but either way I set my amp about 3 feet behind me and either on a chair or my amp-stand, tilted upwards, so I hear myself out of the amp. Sometimes they don't have separate monitor mixes and I hear it in the monitors, always ruins the tone for me. I have never had any trouble hearing myself with my amp this way.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 05 October 2004 at 01:19 PM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 5 Oct 2004 12:58 pm

I still remember one of the first live television shows I worked, when a studio technician insisted on putting all the amps behind a stage curtain about 10 feet behind us because they didn't look neat on camera. If you think it's difficult working next to the drums......try playing by the drums without even being able to hear anyone's amp!

I agree with Jim. I always set my amp behind me, a foot or two off the floor, so I can hear what I'm used to. The sound techs can do whatever they want to beyond that!

www.genejones.com

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 5 Oct 2004 3:07 pm

What is this recent predilection people have for tactile music? It's certain that it will keep the audiologists in groceries for decades to come

Tim, that's what I would term a "midsized" venue, and I wouldn't feel it necessary to have a mike for anything but the vocals. (Of course, I know I'm in the minority, here...what else is new.

) Most bands that I've seen that try to mike everything in a venue of that size (or smaller) just wind up ruining their sound. IMHO, there is a certain liveliness, or "open ambience" in the sound of a band which is lost when you funnel everything through one stack of speakers. That's the reason that a big (brass?) band never sounds very impressive on your home stereo system. The "spatial definition" (my own term) that you hear in a live performance just isn't there. (Of course, if you're playing hillbilly-disco for line-dancers, those people just don't respond to anything less than a 120 db. bass and drum beat.)

In a small band, balance between instruments is an art in itself, one that's rapidly being lost nowadays with the ubiquitous "sound man" and his 32-channel auditory-tunnel-vision view of what live music's supposed to sound like.

In the "old days", as a listener, you could move to the other side of the stage if one of the instruments was offensively loud. But nowadays, with stacks of speakers that dwarf refrigerators, and kilowatt sound systems that deafen even the hard-of-hearing (like me), your only choice is to leave and go home, which, unfortunately, I've had to do on several occasions. Music isn't just loud up by the stage, it's loud everywhere!

Chuck Lemasters · Post by **Chuck Lemasters** » 5 Oct 2004 4:38 pm

Donny, I agree with you 100 percent. And having played a smaller club recently with vocals only miked, after having played the same club several times with a large system, the rest of the band is in agreement, with the exception of the drummer(who would'a guessed?). And the schleping-gear-up-the-stairs factor is much improved, as well.

chuck

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 5 Oct 2004 6:25 pm

This past year, I personally encountered a drummer that had each and every one of HIS drums miked!! This was a five piece group in a fair sized club with about 60 patrons.
The object, I wonder......

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 Oct 2004 7:46 pm

Just because they can...

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 5 Oct 2004 8:44 pm

Ray, A drummer like that should be arrested and charged with assault with a deadly weapon and intent to do bodily harm! and keep his drums for eveidence.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 6 Oct 2004 12:59 am

When I was 13 and played in my first band, all Ventures tunes, I carried my Gibson Melody Maker in 1 hand and my little Gibson amp in the other. Of course I didn't have a car so I had to be very able to do this in 1 trip after being dropped off by my parents who clearly just wanted to peel out and move on.

There were easily 150 to 200 patrons at each and every gig..maybe more.

I didn't own a microphone but 1 of the other guys did and he plugged into channel 2 of his Alamo guitar amp with 2x10s.

Since then I have evolved into playing with ,get this,as many as 4 Twin Reverbs in 2 little stacks or 2 Dual Showmans.Various combninations of natural and complete compression because everything was so far out of phase it was silly. At times we would even mic these amps..why ? who knows..probably cause we could .

40 years later I am still dumbfounded when we play gigs where the max amount of folks could be maybe 150 ( and more like 50 to 75) and the sound guys are mic'ing everything on the planet.The last gig the house sound guy ran out of channels (16) and had no more room for me to have a vocal mic. I casually mentioned tht my harmony lines were integral to the bands voicing but he was more into the wires and the mics on the drums etc..so..I didn't argue the case.Afterall..I play Steel..why would I need a vocal mic ?

I brought this to the attention of my band pals at our last get together and explained that 16 mics on a bandstand where there may be less than 100 people is way more than my comprehension, suprisingly they all agreed .

ok back to topic..this weekend,it's the Steel,a Tele' or Strat , my Profex and the Nashville 400 on a 20" riser dolly that I built. We will not mic my amp, the drums or any other amp..

Basically if the N400 or a similar amp can't do the trick on any gig then you are asking, no make that begging for trouble.

Average venues do not require being mic'ed. Large venues probably will, but thats the place where hopefully some professional sound crew will be there to get the job done, not a bunch of local wacks who just came from GC with 1 hundred speakers, 6 power amps and a 64 channel board with snakes and accessories that would make Sears look thin.

1 Guitar, 1 quality amp..be done with it.

I'm trying desparatley to get back to where I was when I was 13.. except I would like to keep the car..

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 06 October 2004 at 02:07 AM.][This message was edited by Tony Prior on 06 October 2004 at 04:21 AM.]

Tony Orth · Post by **Tony Orth** » 6 Oct 2004 4:16 am

Well now, Tony, I'm glad I read your comments. I was just wrestling with a decision on how much equipment to use this weekend. I'm sitting in for a friend who plays through a Stereo Steel and I was thinking about taking two amps so I could have the volume the band is familiar with.

After reading your post, reality set in.
It's a small venue and I'm just sittin' in.
My friend is a pro-steeler and there's no way I'm going to sound like him anyway.

Think I'll just take my Evans and have fun with it.

Have a great day!
Tony

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 6 Oct 2004 5:09 am

Just as another take, using mics and direct boxes to get at least some of everything thru a snake into a single board, located where someone can really hear what the audience hears, is not necessarily about volume: it's ideally just about achieving good balance and tone that the audience can readily enjoy. I agree that a good band ought to be able to achieve good sound and balance in small venues without that stuff -- but many (maybe most) just can't, at least not in a place where they haven't played before. If you haven't heard your band from where the audience hears it, you may not know that. The mains don't have to be the size of refrigerators (ours are not even as big as an N-112...), and there can be plenty of ambient sound from individual amps, drums, etc. (we run the acoustic guitar player through our board and back to his Bose Stick, just so we can get his sound and volume right, because he can't...). Carrying the voices and non-electric instruments should still be the p.a. system's primary function, all other things being equal (literally). But give me a break -- I would rather listen to a well-balanced group at a comfortable volume level through a snake-and-board rig and a nice sounding p.a. than listen to some guys all blasting away with their two NV-400s... no wonder drummers feel they need to mike up![This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 06 October 2004 at 06:11 AM.][This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 07 October 2004 at 08:34 PM.]

Brian Wetzstein · Post by **Brian Wetzstein** » 6 Oct 2004 9:51 am

Miked up drums sound great. There is a roundness that gets lost without microphones. It is the same with cymbals. The decay is much sweeter and more harmonic.

After you are finished whooping me...
My new band is much louder than my last band. A few of the players come from punk backgrounds and that may have something to do with it. I have not been around long enough yet to request reducing the stage volume but I have been trying not to compete/contribute to the problem.
When we rehearse the only thing miked is the vocals but somehow the amps get turned up louder than the PA.
Do you guys think that moving all the amps to the same spot in the room would help all the members to hear the mix the same way? I know my Webb has to seem louder to the drummer with it pointing at him than it does to the bass player who is out of the line of fire.
I do miss the low stage volume of the last band. I think you can get a cleaner performance if you can actually hear everything.
The drummer has a ton to do with setting the volume. Keeping my amp on 2 is great but if the hi-hat smothers it?
We will see!
Most clubs we play do mike everything. I still try to keep the amp volume low and let the mains deliver the volume.
So my live steel rig is Sho-Bud Pro-I, Webb 614-E(as quiet as I can be) and me!
Good morning everyone. Mmmm coffee.
brian[This message was edited by Brian Wetzstein on 06 October 2004 at 10:55 AM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 6 Oct 2004 11:11 am

Yes, miking everything and running it all through a board at a perfect mix is the idea, and a good idea in theory......it's just in actual practice where it all goes to he**, and in a small room it shouldn't even be considered necessary. I'm with Tony P., we just don't need all this crap just because it exists. Before moving here I played 2-1/2 years with a great bunch of guys, we did fairs all over the midwest, mostly outdoors, and of course we needed all that sound reinforcement, but then we were still much louder than need be. If the idea is to get the right mix, consistent in the audience area, why is it always too loud, and it's rarly even consistent from front to back and side to side anyway! I know it's a tough job, all I'm saying is that all the sound reinforcement is necessary in big venues, but even then it makes it louder, not necessarily better, and sure isn't needed in small venues.

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 6 Oct 2004 12:10 pm

I think Brian touched on a couple of good points, getting back to the original question. He mentioned "line of fire." Speakers are directional, so when setting up monitors, I try to pay attention to exactly where the monitor is pointing, and try to position it so it points at my ear. This sounds dumb, but I can't tell you how many times I have forgotten myself.

Lately I've figured out that I like to have my amp behind me, but off to one side a little bit, so it has a better "line of fire" to my ear. Ears are not in the back of your head. Then I put the monitor in front, but off to the other side. For example if I'm sitting stage left, I put my amp back/left angled toward me, and monitor front/right, angled toward me. That way I get some separation, so whatever is coming out of the monitors is more focused on my right ear, and my amp is more focused on my left ear. Kind of a stereo theroy.

Brian also mentioned that the volume that a drummer plays has a lot to do with micing/monitors/etc, and that is the plain truth! One of the best drummers I know plays absurdly loud (with no mics), that's just the way he plays. So even in a mid size venue, on a small stage, I need monitors to hear the other intraments and vocals. Another drummer I know plays so softly, even in a mid sized venue he needs at least the kick and sometimes snare miced.

But the biggest influence is probably the acoustics of the room you are playing.

Just my observations.

------------------
Ben
Zum D10, NV400, TubeFex, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 6 Oct 2004 5:02 pm

I certainly agree that anything can get too loud, whether it's all miked and mixed, or individual. Apart from one instrument -- often drums, but sometimes, in my recent experience, it's actually a b@njo -- driving everyone else up, the "line of fire" aspect of individual amps has a lot to do with it. That's another thing that a well miked, mixed and monitored set up can help to overcome -- if the monitors themselves are not creating or worsening the "line of fire" issues -- although sometimes just placing everyone's amps does to the trick. It is also unfortunately true of the miked/mixed setup that it only takes one unwise finger on one slider to send the whole thing up into painful db levels. But musicians (and listeners) are certainly diverse, and some just like it all loud!

By the way, Tony, I was in a few of those bands at that age, too -- and we sounded like crap! Maybe it wasn't the equipment... because, on the other hand, in college we had a tight band with a Bandmaster and the similar Bassman, with guitar in one and bass in the other, and a mic in each, flanking the drummer, and we sounded great. I also played many Saturday nights in a little island bar in Maine with steel, D-45 (with Barcus Berry) and mic going into one Twin, and we sounded great. I think what made a big difference in each case was simply that where the amps were set, the the whole band could hear itself pretty much the same way the audience did. Lately, with a bigger group and bigger venues, I am finding that mix&mike&monitor is a good way to get that. But any way you can make that happen for both band and audience is good!

Loudness is just a separate issue -- and probably deserves a separate thread.

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 7 Oct 2004 3:39 am

The band I was in for the last 4 years (The Legends) used a setup which I really liked. On drums we never miked except on a large venue such as an outside concert or large hall. Then we'd only put a mike on the bass drum and one on a stand above the whole set and that worked great for us. On the lead guitar and steel, we set everything on the PA flat and had the volume exactly the same as what was coming out of the mains and didn't send anything to the monitors on those. The bass guitar wasn't miked most of the time except on a very large venue as it's not as directional as the others. I started playing pro in the early 60's and for many years we never miked anything and never had vocal monitors and it all seemed to be OK. I think there's a lot of overkill in the PA setups of today. I remember going to dances with my parents as a kid to groups like Bob Wills, Ole Rasmussen, etc. and they were held in large dance halls without huge PA sets and no instruments miked but had a good balance. I think that the art of live performance has been lost to a lot of younger musicians. I miss the days when a picker knew how loud to play his amp and didn't have to be turned up or down by a sound man. Soundmen have ruined a lot of shows in my estimation. I did a show at the beach last summer with an Elvis Impersonator playing lead guitar. I received a video tape of the show and I wasn't hardly in the mix. The electric rhythm guitar was drowning me out even though we had a good mix on stage. On the 2nd show, the keyboard player dominated everything. Sometimes if you get a good mix that you're happy with, the soundman will tweak it to his liking which most of the time isn't right...d@mn, I hate soundmen (or women)........Have a good 'un..JH

------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 7 Oct 2004 6:20 am

I agree that if you have a good soundman and good PA, in large venues, running almost eveything through the board can be the best way to get good balance. In that situation your amp becomes your single channel monitor of yourself, and you can set it close, tilt it or whatever you need to do to hear it well. But if you are not miked, putting your speaker close and pointing it at your ears can lead you to play too quietly to be heard out front, even though you hear yourself fine. I have seen steelers do that.

In smaller venues,when amps aren't miked, I think they work best with the speakers at the back of the stage, preferably raised or on chairs, but pointing directly out to the audience, not tilted. This forces you to play loud enough to be heard in the mix. And with the speakers all at the back, it seems easier for everyone to hear everyone else and get good balance.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 07 October 2004 at 07:21 AM.]

Wayne Baker · Post by **Wayne Baker** » 7 Oct 2004 6:41 am

Tim, if you have a good sound-guy, he should be able to set you up with more of YOU in your monitor. I use a Peavey Nashville 400 and a Boss DD-3 delay most of the time. I mic with an SM-57. I have used that in front of as small as 20 people and large as thousands. I have found that set-up works great for me. If I could change one thing, I would go with two amps and mics.

------------------
Thanks,
Wayne Baker

Emmons Legrande d-10, w/8&5, Emmons S10 p/p
w/3&4 Nashville 400, Boss DD3.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 7 Oct 2004 8:53 am

if you have a good sound-guy

Yes, but that's a pretty big IF....

Tim Tweedale · Post by **Tim Tweedale** » 7 Oct 2004 2:13 pm

What settings do you use on your DD3, Wayne?

-Tim

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 7 Oct 2004 3:31 pm

Moved to 'Electronics', since that's what this topic seems to be about.

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 9 Oct 2004 7:07 am

The main reason to use a microphone or direct box with a steel amp is to distribute the sound to the audience uniformly. A 15" speaker is very directional at high frequencies and omnidirectional at low frequencies. In a good sound system, the amplified sound can be captured at the steel players amplifier (I happen to think best with a microphone)and then faithfully spread to the entire audience. That's where the tricky part starts. Most sound systems are not faithful reproducers and most folks think they should be loud. IMHO they should only fill in areas that are missing the sound that is coming off of the stage. Say you are playing in a room that is shaped like a football field. Big or small it doesn't matter. The stage is on the 50 yard line. Someone wants to hear the steel who is seated in the endzone and there is also someone who wants to hear the steel who is seated on the 47 yard line right in front of the steel amp. Who wins? Probably neither. The solution is complicated but suffice to say that the steel amp should be just loud enough for the player to be comfortable and mic'd amp goes into the sound system and spreads it around evenly, not louder. I call this approach subtractive mixing and it requires the cooperation of musicians, sound mixing person, sound system designer/installer. Unfortunately it doesn't happen very often in the real world. I've been playing steel, designing sound systems and mixing for over thirty years. Believe me, it can be done well. It just takes the desire and budget to do it right.

TC Furlong