Problem with new Fender '65 Custom Twin 15"

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 12 Mar 2004 10:27 am

I just took delivery on a new '65 Custom Twin Reverb (w/15" speaker) that I ordered back in January. I took it home and played my 6-string through it, and it sounded great. I then hooked up the steel, playing some simple chords on the higher frets....sounded beautiful. This is THE tone I have been looking for.

(sigh) Then.....I started to play at stage levels. When I turned up the volume, I heard a strange rattle on certain notes (especially G notes) as well as when I would play chords on the low strings. The sound was akin to the rattle of those little cymbals on a tambourine.

I took the amp to the shop where I got it, and while the problem was able to be replicated using a six-string (interestingly....the problem was worse using the 2nd channel that houses the vibrato/reverb, though after disconnecting the reverb unit the problem remained), we could not fix it. We tried tightening up every screw....no dice.

An amp tech will be tightening up the tubes and possibly retubing the amp tomorrow.

If that doesn't work.....it may just have to go back to Fender and either a new one shipped or I will get a refund.

The thing is.....the moment I started playing the steel through this amp, I KNEW it had the tone and reverb I was looking for. I want this amp to work.....but I'm suspecting that Fender just decided to throw a 15" into this cabinet and never even bothered to let a steel play through it during testing (if any testing WAS done).

Any thoughts on what the problem might be, guys?

Joe

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 12 Mar 2004 11:33 am

My sympathies, Joe! What a bummer to wait that long only to have the amp show up with problems right out of the box. I hope you stick with it. I wish they would have had the Custom 15 when I bought my Twin Reverb Re-issue. Once I replaced the stock 12" speakers with a JBL D130-F the amp really came to life. I have no idea what's causing the problems you decribed, but hang in there. Let us know how things turn out and especially your opinion of the amp once you get it fixed.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 12 Mar 2004 1:03 pm

I just took delivery of the 65 Custom 15 also and test drove it at home yesterday. My amp handles all aspects of playing. including the "boo wha" with the 12 string very efficiently. I was playing it very loud also but will use it on the job in several weeks. So far no rattles or unwanted noise.

I'll let you know what happens.[This message was edited by Len Amaral on 12 March 2004 at 01:04 PM.]

Cartwright Thompson · Post by **Cartwright Thompson** » 13 Mar 2004 5:11 pm

I'll bet that the problem is in the cabinet and not the electronics/tubes.

Bill Leff · Post by **Bill Leff** » 13 Mar 2004 6:32 pm

My bet it is the rectifier tube. The stock rectifier tubes in the Fender reissues (my Deluxe Reverb) are junk. I've had several that rattle, almost like a baby rattle. I replaced mine with a Weber Copper Cap (see webervst.com for details). No more problems.

It took me a long time to figure out that this was the problem with my Deluxe Reverb.
If I remember correctly, if you play the note and the tube is rattling, you can grab the tube with your hand (make sure you have a cloth over your hand, these are hot!) and the rattle will subside. Try it.

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 13 Mar 2004 6:36 pm

The Symptoms point to a plywood Core that is loose or not laminated well. This happens often when Cheaper grades of plywood are used for speaker cabinets.

Try another Speaker Cabinet and disconnect the Amp speaker and See if it goes away.[This message was edited by John Floyd on 13 March 2004 at 06:38 PM.]

Bill Leff · Post by **Bill Leff** » 13 Mar 2004 6:41 pm

Another thing - the tubes that Fender uses are junk (all of them). I don't know what they are using in your amp, but this is true of the Deluxe Reverb Reissue. There are certain tubes that affect the tone (like the 12AX7 preamp tubes in position V1 and V2) that should be upgraded for better tone (I like the JJ ECC83S as replacements - inexpensive, and sound good). The 6v6 power tubes in the Deluxe were also unreliable and not great sounding. I'm not sure about the 6L6s in your amp, but there are probably better sounding/more reliable ones out there. Again, JJ comes to mind as an one alternative.

I buy my JJ tubes from Bob at eurotubes.com
Great customer service and prices.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 13 Mar 2004 10:55 pm

I just bought a '65 Reissue Fender Twin-Reverb Custom 15 today, but; I haven't put it through the paces yet. I plan to dive into that tomorrow and see what happens. So far today I haven't noticed any negative results, but; I'll get back on the matter later. The dealer told me that this amp. just arrived less than one week ago, so; there is the possibility that if there was a problem in the past, it has been corrected! I'm trying to think positive!

L8R, “Big John”

------------------
“Big John” Bechtel
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 14 Mar 2004 3:29 am

Microphonic ECC83...maybe
Baz www.waikiki-islanders.com

------------------

Steel players do it without fretting

http://www.waikiki-islanders.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 14 Mar 2004 7:33 am

Does the 15" reissue Fender Twin have tube rectifiers?

All the twins I ever worked on had solid state rectifiers. Has Fender gone back to the archaic tube rectifiers in this reissue?

As to extraneous sounds produced when certain hi level notes or chords are played, it can be a real pain to find. Because it can be any of the above and almost anything imagined. When I was repairing them, this problem was 2nd only to "intermittents" to find.

The following are just some of the things that have been found to cause such anamolies:

1. Loose screw(s). Anywhere; chassis, speaker, transformers, etc.

2. Loose tube sockets

3. Microphonic tube(s)

5. Transformer housing loose even though mounting screws are tight.

6. Loose circuit board or fiber component boards.

7. One or more metal edge protectors on the cabinet resonating. This one is difficult to isolate.

8. Any control not tight in its mounting.

9. A washer that got lodged between the chassis and cabinet. It was a bear to find.

If a conscientious technician was working on it, he would connect a signal generator to it, and often the problem can be duplicated continously, by "sweeping" the generator through all its frequencies. If successful, when the resonant frequency of the cause is reached, the problem will show up everytime THAT frequency is selected.

In this way, it is easier to find. In the case of microphonic tubes, placing one's thumb high on the tube and then flicking the tear drop GENTLY at the top with one's fingernail, will confine the test to a specific tube. Albeit power tubes have no tear drop.

If you tap on the side of a tube hard (as many unthinking techs do, it can actually cause another microphonic tube to be excited and confuse one into thinking the wrong tube was the culpritt.

Not to mention ruining the tube(s) while using this incorrect (but quite common) service technique.

Also, I find it odd that ANY one would have to change out all the tubes in a brand new amp with another manufacturer's tubes. To me that is saying Fender is putting out an inferior product. So why buy it?

Surely Fender would not, as a practice, use inferior tubes. Yes they may not use the Rolls-Royce of tubes; but I feel confident their quality control would choose high quality tubes as well as other products used in the amp.

carl

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 14 Mar 2004 1:54 pm

Well, I've been playing through my new Custom 15” today, and so far, no problems. I won't get to take it away from the house until April 6 th. Then I'll put the power-test to it! But, so far, so good! I really like the sound of the 1x15” better than 2x12”, with good low-end while retaining the Treble & Middle. “Big John”

------------------
“Big John” Bechtel
Franklin PSG D–10 (9 &

Fender ’49–’50 T–8 Custom
Fender ’65 Reissue Twin-Reverb Custom 15”
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 14 Mar 2004 7:28 pm

All,

Thanks for the comments and info....I really do appreciate it.

I got the amp back today, and the amp tech that looked at it said that the noise I was experiencing was due to the baffle board screws not being tight enough.....he was able to best replicate the noise with a bass guitar (he didn't have a steel to play through it)...he tightened everything up and put some shims in between the baffle board and something or other (he started losing me with all the "tech talk"). In any event, when I got it home I tried it out and .....the problem is till there, but to a lesser extent.

I am able to eliminate the noise if I sit on the cabinet while playing, so it definitely is a cabinet issue, not an electronic one.

For live situations, I know this isn't a big deal, since I hardly play the lower strings on the C6 neck....and there are so many other extraneous noises that the slight rattle will probably never be heard. But for the money I paid for the amp, if the cabinet is posing these problems from the get go there is a strong possibility in my mind that the problems will increase with time (sort of like rattles/squeaks in a car).....and for recording and home practice use, this is unacceptable.

The amp tech did say that the cabinet is really not ideal for this instrument, being the typical particle board/plywood used, versus the solid construction of Peavey's cabinets. The thing is, I just do not like how Peavey's recent amps (N400, N1000) sound. My friends Session 400 sounds great....maybe I need to find one of those.

In any event, the Fender will be heading back. I might see about getting another and see if maybe I just got a bad one. :-/ If not, then I'll either keep playing through my Vox 2X12" Valvetronix (has a Twin model setting), or will look to an Evans or Session 400.

Any further thoughts, all?

Joe

Nick Reed · Post by **Nick Reed** » 14 Mar 2004 9:09 pm

Joe,
I have a Fender '65 reissue Twin Reverb with the (2) '12's rather than a '15. I like playing my '71 Emmons P/P through it in small clubs. To me, it's a HUMDINGER! I also have a Webb 614-E & a Peavey Nashville 1000 (I recently sold my Nashville 400). There are some places I play where my Fender Twin Reverb just absolutely sounds the best, at least to my ears. I realize there are some guys here on the Forum who don't like the re-issue Fender Twin's, but I really like mine.
Big John Bechtel is a friend of mine, and I'll get with him to compare sound with his Custom Twin '15 and mine with the (2)'12's. I'll let you know how they compare. Nick[This message was edited by Nick Reed on 16 March 2004 at 12:16 AM.]

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 15 Mar 2004 4:40 am

I guess I don't understand why so many guys are considering these "modern" Fender amps when there are so many point to point wired originals out there for half the price. This is not to say the older amps can't develop a rattle like Joe's amp,but the reliability track record on original Fender amps is beyond question. A new set of GOOD tubes,a few caps and a bias adjustment,and they go for years and years. I see many original [1972-74?] Vibrosonics for sale in the $600 range... If I used a tube combo for steel that is the way I would go.. better reliability IMHO..... anyway,I hope you get straightened out with this amp situation Joe. It is no fun shelling out a small mint on an amp and then having these kind of headaches.. good luck..bob

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 15 Mar 2004 7:18 am

I agree with Bob, an old Vibrosonic will cost less and actually appreciate in value over the years, and will certainly sound as good or better than the new one. The only advantage to buying a new amp is the 5 year warranty. I bought my 65 Re-issue because Guitar Center had a "no interest for one year" credit card, so I was able to pay it off with gig money. If you have the cash up front, buy a collectible vintage Fender. IMHO.

Mark Herrick · Post by **Mark Herrick** » 15 Mar 2004 2:09 pm

I'm no expert (I just play one on TV) but a '72-'74 Fender amp is not point-to-point wired. They are wired on an eyelet board. These amps have their own "quirks", as do most amps.

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 15 Mar 2004 3:44 pm

Try another Speaker Cabinet and disconnect the internal speaker and See if the problem goes away. If it does, its the cabinet. If it doesn't its in the electronics. I'm surprised that this basic troubleshooting step hasn't been done yet or at least you haven't mentioned it.

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 15 Mar 2004 8:06 pm

I had the same thing happen to my 1972 Twin Reverb. Come to find out it was the outer edge of the speaker rattling against the mounting board. We put a thicker, newer layer of Cork between the speaker and the mounting board and no more rattles. I thought I had a tear in one of the speakers, at least that's what it sounded like, they are beautiful D120F's and look like they are brand new, that almost broke my heart. Anyway that's just a suggestion you might try.
Gene

------------------
If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 15 Mar 2004 11:08 pm

One more thing I would like to mention is that years ago, when changing out the 2x12's in the Twin-Reverb amps, we usually changed the baffle-board to a 3/4” thickness to avoid the rattles! The stock baffles, I think are only 1/2 or 5/8” at the most. I really haven't been able to get a perfect l©©k as this new Twin-Custom, but; it appears to be only 1/2”. Reguardless, this is the amp for me! I'm more interested in sound/tone than I am in blowing the roof off my Mobil-Home!

------------------
“Big John” Bechtel
Franklin PSG D–10 (9 &

Fender ’49–’50 T–8 Custom
Fender ’65 Reissue Twin-Reverb Custom 15”
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 21 Mar 2004 3:48 am

Here's how I would fix it:
Bring it back to the store for a full refund and get a new one.
Two things may happen: They will realize you will not live on being fed technical blah-blah and little thightening excercises and will give it a last but serious try at fixing it and have you keep it satisfied or they will give you the refund or exchange and you'll get yourself a new amp and be happy anyway.

... J-D.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 21 Mar 2004 6:18 am

John----QUIT HOLLERIN' AT PEOPLE!!! WAS YOU RAISED IN A COTTON MILL?????

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 21 Mar 2004 12:25 pm

Stephen, ever been hit by a flying loom shuttle? Deadly.

Rick

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 21 Mar 2004 10:41 pm

Well, I've been playing through my new '65 Reissue for more than a week now. [both my Franklin and my Fender Custom] For me, this is the greatest sound I've ever had, which might not be saying much for my ability, but; it sure suits me just fine! I've never had any amp to sound any better. If I could, I'd own (2) for stereo, but; I really don't even need one!

------------------
“Big John” Bechtel
Franklin PSG D–10 (9 &

Fender ’49–’50 T–8 Custom
Fender ’65 Reissue Twin-Reverb Custom 15”
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 21 Mar 2004 11:35 pm

John----QUIT HOLLERIN' AT PEOPLE!!! WAS YOU RAISED IN A COTTON MILL?????

YEP


This can be easily fixed if it was bought from a reputable dealer.
Tarheel Music replaced my week old Peavey PX-300 when it decided to nuke itself.
I haven't had a problem since. You don't have problems like this when you buy from the right person. Thanks to Rick Mc Duffie for being the right person.
[This message was edited by John Floyd on 21 March 2004 at 11:38 PM.]

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 25 Mar 2004 8:12 am

UPDATE:

Well, I took the amp to two different places to be serviced.....after the second guy took the entire amp apart, tightened everything and put it all back together, it was worse than before. The harmonic/tambourine-type sound was gone, but the side panel was still making a lot of noise.....a lot worse than before.

Soooo.....I took the amp back to GC. Believe it or not, they had ANOTHER one they just got in. So, I hooked up a bass guitar to it since I didn't have my steel with me. With the amp volume on "4" and the bass guitar volume up high, the speaker on the new one sounded blown.....it was vibrating wildly, which also caused the cabinet to make noise. I hooked back into the one I originally bought, and though it didn't sound blown, it was vibrating wildly as well....TOO wildly.

See, here's the problem. I've noticed that when I play chords using the C6 neck and use the volume pedal to sustain, the higher-pitch notes tend to die out faster (to my ears) than the lower-pitch ones. So, as I swell the volume pedal to sustain the higher notes, the bass actually gets louder. Thus, the amp needs to handle that kind of loud, roaring bass frequency with no problem. If the speaker's about to blow when at "4" on volume, that's not a good sign.

I've played through many steel amps, and this is the first that has exhibited this type of problem with the speaker. I really don't think that this amp is a good choice for live situations, IMO. Too much cabinet noise, and the speaker/cabinet aren't really designed to handle low frequencies for the C6 player.

Joe[This message was edited by Joe Alterio on 25 March 2004 at 08:13 AM.]