Using digital delay to get speed picking effect

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 15 Nov 2003 9:48 am

This has probably come up before on the Forum but I recently saw Jerry Fessenden use this technique and forgot to ask him about it.
What settings do you use and what is the theory to acheive a speed picking sound?

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 15 Nov 2003 10:54 am

Just in from Jerry Fessenden:

I just do what Bobbe Seymour showed me, delay speed about 275-305 msec & feedback with only ONE repeat...

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 15 Nov 2003 11:17 am

Just listen to 'Witches Brew' from Buddy's Black Album
. . . or
to my tune Uncle Phil

Is that what you're describing?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 15 Nov 2003 12:22 pm

Gerry Walker has a cassette & tab for "ghost riders in the sky" using this delay effect.

DroopyPawn · Post by **DroopyPawn** » 15 Nov 2003 4:44 pm

If you don't understand how it works, maybe the best thing would be to just pick a setting and try it.

Play the following notes in a scale...
1 3 2 4 3 5 4 6 5 7 6 8 7 9 1 5

The first note (1) should echo just after the 2nd note (3). Of course, you'll need to find those scale notes first. Try the scale without the delay firs. Then when you've to that down, add the delay.

I'd write the tab but my steel is currently "down".

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George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 15 Nov 2003 8:29 pm

You will need a "stomp box" delay unit because you have to cut the delay off quickly on the last note. The last note you hear has to be you, not the delay. You set the delay until the volume of the delayed note is the same as the note you are picking. You have to set the time between the note you pick and the delay according to how fast you want to pick. If you get it too slow of course, the illusion of doubling your picking speed is lost. You have to play in time to how quick the delay note follows your picked note. You need to block your notes also. It is an old effect used many years ago by guitar pickers, probably with an ecoplex.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 15 Nov 2003 9:03 pm

George, I've seen lots of guys, including Jerry Fessenden and GD Walker, do this with a rackmount delay unit. It does not need to be a "stomp box" type unit. But you're right that whatever unit you use, you have to set it to cut off after just one repeat.

Oh, on re-reading your post, I think I see what you meant. That with a stomp box type, you can hit the very last note of the song and NOT have the last note repeated, by stepping on the pedal to shut it off before hitting that last note. Yes, I suppose that would work that way, but whether that's important would probably depend on the song and whether the band is holding the last chord anyway, in which case the repeat probably won't matter, or whether the band is hitting and cutting off the last chord, in which case maybe your method really is better... sorry if I misunderstood you the first time around.[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 16 November 2003 at 10:46 AM.]

Chuck McGill · Post by **Chuck McGill** » 16 Nov 2003 6:14 am

All the above is good advice but you should set the mix control so the delayed note is the same level as the picked note. You can start the delay at a longer setting to get the hang of it at a slower pace. I love to hear Albert Lee do this.

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 18 Nov 2003 3:59 am

Thanks for the responses!
Are there any more recordings of this technique you can think of?

Jason Stillwell · Post by **Jason Stillwell** » 18 Nov 2003 6:06 am

Two on guitar I can think of right offhand are John Jorgenson on the Desert Rose Band's "Price I Pay" and Vince Gill on Scruggs's CMT version of Foggy Mtn Breakdown.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 18 Nov 2003 6:08 am

Little Jimmy Dickens "Bird of Paradise".

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 18 Nov 2003 8:30 pm

Ditto's to Bitches Brew. Larry your "Uncle Phil" piece is smokin'.

I believe "The Bird Of Paradise" was Grady Martin. Can anyone confirm?

Paul

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 19 Nov 2003 12:11 am

I believe "The Bird Of Paradise" was Grady Martin.

Paul,it was,indeed,Grady. I have an album by Grady that does comment,& confirm it,along w/ an instrumental version of it.

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©¿© It don't mean a thang,
mm if it ain't got that twang.
www.ntsga.com</pre>

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 19 Nov 2003 12:36 am

There are several different settings for the delay time but the most often heard on recordings are a delay-time = dotted eight note.
Shown as here.
<pre>
Guitar plays -s-o-m-e---n-o-t-e-s---
Echo plays ----s-o-m-e---n-o-t-e-s
Time ------>
you hear -s-osmoem-en-ontoetse-s
</pre>
If you want to do this live you will need a "tap delay" where you can tap the syncopated tempo to get the desired effect.

For examples of this type of echo listen to Hellecasters(J.Donahue,J.Jorgensen,W.Ray) or The guitar player(Edge) in U2 or on Pink Floyd "The Wall" album.
One of the first (if not the first) to use this kind of Echo was guitar maker Les Paul. The next one to copy that sound was Carl Perkins but he did not know that Les Paul used an echo to get the effect so Carl Perkins learned how to get the same sound just playin it. Saw he did that on concert on DVD. Was truly amazing.

But syncopated echo repeats will do the trick. Just don't overuse it.

Bengt Erlandsen[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 19 November 2003 at 12:39 AM.]

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 19 Nov 2003 7:11 am

So Larry, was your hand a little sore and tired after recording "Uncle Phil"? Nice work and ideas.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 19 Nov 2003 8:15 am

Make sure you've got a REAL steady drummer or you're carefully dialed in setting is out the window - been there done that. -MJ-

Rex Thomas · Post by **Rex Thomas** » 19 Nov 2003 8:45 am

Yeah, Larry! NICE on Uncle Phil!

Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 20 Nov 2003 9:01 am

Tony;

The effect can be really tricky to pull off. All you really need is a delay with a decent sounding echo that will go up to 300-400 mille-seconds and has an effect on/off footswitch.

Maybe this Buddy Emmons clip will help you figure it out. It's an Echoplex. I'm guessing the delay is set at about 350 ms. You can hear what the echo is doing as opposed to trying to figure it out during a solo. (BTW: It's a bit scratchy. It was taken from my worn out LP a couple of years ago.)

Good luck with it!

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My best,
Ernie

www.buddyemmons.com[This message was edited by Ernie Renn on 20 November 2003 at 09:03 AM.]

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 20 Nov 2003 10:26 am

Larry, all your "Uncle Phil" needs is a vocal by Mary Ford -- I kept expecting her to pop in on the next chorus. Nice work, as always.

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 20 Nov 2003 7:17 pm

Larry. I recall hearing/downloading Uncle Phil a few years ago, maybe from MP3.

I thought this is a great song by a very fast picker and a great thing to work on my chops.

After wearing out 235 picks, buckets of strings and only nubs left of my fingers, you tell me you used an echo to produce the fast notes?

Arrrghhhh........

Great song and great pickin tho.

Michael Haselman · Post by **Michael Haselman** » 21 Nov 2003 6:00 am

Albert Lee is the all time master of this. Check out his version of "Country Boy."

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Marrs D-10, Webb 6-14E

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 21 Nov 2003 12:17 pm

Yeah it is really best to have a tap tempo switch AND an on & off switch to do this effect.(I think I remember that Albert uses a somewhat pricey Lexicon for this)

I have neither of these on my old Pro Fex 1, so what I've done is preset a few patches using different tempo's. Over the years, I've gotten pretty good (although not always 100% perfect..but mostly pretty close) at counting off songs at the right preset speed for using this fun effect. It has helped me get a pretty good inner time clock for telling where the tempo is in the process. 130bpm, 140, 155 etc etc.(I use it mostly for fast "train beat" type songs) It's funny no matter how fast you can play normally, or how cool you think your chord work might be, this effect always perks up the ears of the audience and band members alike. Good to use once or twice a night tops, so as not to wear it out.

Here's another question for you guys: what's the formula for using this trick for triplets?

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 22 Nov 2003 1:12 am

The trick I use for triplets is simple.
I first pick a single note repeatedly and pace it in such a way that I am exactly in sync with the slap back echo. So every beat hears the picking AND the delay at the same time. This is boring, but it is a starting point. It also makes you steady.

I then gradually increase the picking speed and as your speed increases, all of a sudden you'll hear a different rhythm...like TA-KA-TA-KA etc. You'll need to experiment a little here if you dont get it right first time.

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Peter den Hartogh-Emmons 1978 S10 - Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 22 Nov 2003 1:41 am

I played a crazy little thing at a Show yesterday that could be just what you need.
It was called "Adrena-linn 2" - made by Roger Linn in Ca. It automatically matched the tap tempo to the beat. On some settings it just ran away with me. I played a couple of low notes and it just took off on its own with a Rock, dance or whatever riff. For example, I played a G chord, then Em and it played the intro to "His Latest Flame" (Elvis)
Sometimes it was absolutely insane, but it did have a perfect double pick setting, and also an "Instant Dick Dale" setting too.
Try one- you will laugh your socks off at some of the things it does to your playing!
Cheers
Dave

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 22 Nov 2003 10:50 am

Peter (or anyone)....I guess what I was looking for was the actual number formula for playing triplets using this. For example, how many milliseconds would I set the delay for a tempo of 100 bpm?