Fender Twin

steinar · Post by **steinar** » 7 Nov 2003 8:43 am

In search of that sparkling Brumley sound from sixties, I´ve bought a Silverface Twin from 1975 with two D-120F JBL´s.
The resident tube guru over here in Norway has changed the "out" tubes to 655o and installed a new transformer for those.
Also, he has experimented with disconnecting the master volume and also the first channel.
However, those great Brumley tones are still elusive.
I had the great fortune of plugging into another stock Twin in a studio about a month ago, and that one really delivered.
But to make this one do the trick, has proved to be a challenge so far. So far, it is doing ok with the C6 neck, but on the E9, it gets shrill and harsh with overtones. And if the bias and the gain get turned down, it again gets too dry
Up next, is experimenting with different resistances and different tubes, and also the order of the tubes.
But is there any sure fire way of tweaking this Twin so as to duplicate that wonderful Brumley sound we hear on the Ranch Shows?

I also have a Dual Showman head with two similar JBL´s in a cabinet, and if we can find the formula with this Twin, we wanted to duplicate it with the Showman.
Later on, we´ll also experiment with substituting the JBL´s with neodyms, - but that´s later on down the line.

So, dear Fender professors of the Forum, could anybody wield the magic wand?

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 7 Nov 2003 9:21 am

Ken Fox, where are you?

Brad Sarno

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 7 Nov 2003 9:28 am

Ther is no magic wand..you would have the taste and know how of Tom Brumley to get the sound that he does.It takes years and years
and there is no way any amp can make a player
sound like someone else.

Again,Its all in the feel and that old word
"The Hands". You have hands,,look for the sound that is YOU.

steinar · Post by **steinar** » 7 Nov 2003 9:51 am

Hi Jody.

Thanks for your reply, and I quite agree with what you say about trying to copy Master Brumley, - it´s simply impossible, and especially for an amateur like myself.
However, it´s that twangy quality of the sound that I´m after and that I found with that studio amp. Somehow, this Twin that I´ve bought does not quite do the same job, although it´s about as old as the other one and also has the same loudspeakers.
So, that why I wondered if there is some standard mods that the Twins should have to work well on a steel. So, far Weber´s suggestion of installing 6550 tubes has been followed, but is there anything else?

And again, even if we should achieve this tonal quality that I seek, I have no hopes of ever coming close to what Tom achieved.
I have the good fortune of knowing him, and I respect him both as an outstanding musician and as a truly fine gentleman

Thanks for making this point, Jody.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 7 Nov 2003 9:59 am

Steinar, are you playing a ZB Custom through the Twin? If you aren't you are not going to get near Tom Brumley's tone. Its the reason I play a D-10 ZB. The ZB has a VERY unique sound.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 7 Nov 2003 11:24 am

I had the pleasure this year at the ISGC of helping Mr. Brumley procure a tube for his Fender Twin. His reverb wasn't working and we found it to be one of the reverb tubes. I talked about Twins with him a bit and he said that his Twins are all either Blackface circuits or if it's a silverface, it's been converted to the Blackface spec's. His tone controls were roughly: bright off, treble 3.5, midrange 4, bass 10, reverb 2.8.

Also, it's got to be 2 JBL D-120 speakers.

It's my understanding that you can convert your modern, "master-volume" Twin back to blackface spec's. Ken Fox and Gino Iorfido can help you there.

------------------
Brad Sarno
Blue Jade Audio Mastering
St. Louis
http://home.earthlink.net/~bradsarno/

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 7 Nov 2003 11:25 am

Oh yea, the guitar makes a big difference. ZB into a Twin is the way to go. That's what I play most of the time now. Kevin will attest to the ZB factor.

What guitar are you trying to get this sound with?

Brad

steinar · Post by **steinar** » 7 Nov 2003 1:09 pm

Hi Brad.

Thanks a lot for enlightening me as to some of the aspects of Tom`s sound.
So far I´ve used way too much midrange, and my "tubeguru," just found that out, too.
As a matter of fact, if we had found this out earlier, he could have saved himself 7 hours on his knees with a soldering iron and a huge assortment of various resistances, tubes etc. with which he experimented on the Twin in search of that elusive Brumleyesque/twangy sound.
Very interesting to hear that you worked with the Man himself in St. Louis, Brad.
We had Tom over to Norway in 1997, and hopefully he´ll be back here next August for our Norwegian steel weekend.

At any rate, you´ve helped me a long way with your very useful information, so thanks a lot, Brad.

Gratefully yours,

Steinar

steinar · Post by **steinar** » 7 Nov 2003 1:18 pm

Oh, I forgot to mention that I play a Zum from the early eighties with original pick ups.
I have noted what you said about the qualities of the ZB. Are they still to be had on the used circuit?

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 7 Nov 2003 2:58 pm

But, what about X ?

jim milewski · Post by **jim milewski** » 7 Nov 2003 6:06 pm

I always felt Twins had a notch in the mids, and the JBLs seem to have as well, to my ears they (JBLs) were to bright, and lacked mids, is there any way you can plug your speaker out to a single 4 ohm 15" Black widow or something like it, I have two Twins and found BIG improvement with the 15" BWs, for 2 12", the EVMs to my ears are fuller

steinar · Post by **steinar** » 7 Nov 2003 10:52 pm

To Lee: It´s the O´s that matter!

To Jim: Yeah, I´ve got a BW 15 in a cabinet, and I´ll try that, too.
However, after having gotten the right mid setting and after having done the blackface modification, I think that the fog starts to clear somewhat.
Anyway, thanks for your suggestion.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 8 Nov 2003 7:08 pm

it's the ZB / Fender comination that makes the basis of the sound- and Tom refined it to My Ideal...

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 9 Nov 2003 1:00 am

Exactly Dave. Right on. Another steel player from my area came up to me at one of our bigger jobs this summer. I was playing the ZB Custom through the Webb. He said "Hey man, you sound REAL west coast, like Brumley." That was about the biggest compliment that I've ever got playing steel because over the last year I've strived for the Mooney, Brumley, Manness thing both in tone and performance. What Brumley did at the time that he was doing it with one and two knees is just amazing. What a legacy the masters have left us. I LOVE the west coast sound. [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 09 November 2003 at 01:06 AM.]

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 9 Nov 2003 8:33 am

ZB

Brad Sarno

Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 9 Nov 2003 2:25 pm

6550 tubes are the cleanest tube sound you can get, however it ain't a Twin once you changed those out. Black-facing the circuit will infact result in a less clean amp sound than that of the 70's amps. However, that is the sound most of us want from a Twin! By far the best sounding Twin I have heard yet for steel had EV speakers in it. Hard to find them now. The EV Force 12 speakers or the Peavey 1203-8 might be a good choice. I still think the old EV's are the warmest I have heard yet.
If it were my amp, I would put it back to Blackface specs, put in JJ/Telsa tubes, and crank the bias up to close to 35ma. If it is a 135 watt Twin, your bias will be a bit less and it will not ever sound like a Blackface amp, it is much cleaner (due to the ultralinear output transformer). If it is a 135 watt Twin, you really need good oiwer tubes to handle the 500 VDC plate voltages this amp can deliver. Even a UL transformer Twin can be converted to close to Blackface specs by adding a choke coil to supply the screen grid voltages and then disconnecting the UL taps. The UL transformer was used by stereo amp manufacturers back then for cleaner power amps.[This message was edited by Ken Fox on 09 November 2003 at 02:29 PM.]

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 9 Nov 2003 7:49 pm

I have noted what you said about the qualities of the ZB. Are they still to be had on the used circuit?

Yes... that's about the only way to get one

keep your eyes peeled here in the buy and sell, they are around. [This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 09 November 2003 at 07:49 PM.]

steinar · Post by **steinar** » 10 Nov 2003 11:27 am

Ken, thanks for bringing your views on this matter.
Both the Twin and the Showman are mid-seventies, and they´re both 100 watts.
The Twin has two JBL D-120F, and so will the Showman.
The Showman is in it´s original state so far, whereas the Twin has had the 6550´s installed and is now being altered to Blackface specs.

But what you´re saying, Ken, is that although the 6550´s are the cleanest tubes around, they "de-Twin" the Twin? Meaning that the original tonal quality of the Twin will be irrevocably altered? Hence they will bring us further away from our goal?
Should we forsake the 6550 and use the old tubes or that type?
Should we rather copy the Healy modification?
And again, what I´m after is the Ranch Show Brumley tonal quality, - in as far as that is obtainable with my Zum steel and bearing in mind the limitation that we have earlier discussed - the obvious impossibility in trying to sound like Brumley himself.
So, what do you think, Ken.

And about the ZB, - I understand the importance this steel has in in recreating the particular sound that I´m after.
Would a True Tone pick up help my Zum in this respect?

Thanks to all of you for your kind and helpful suggestions.

Steinar

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 10 Nov 2003 11:48 am

There's a nice looking old ZB on e-bay right now. Here's the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2568948702&category=2384

Wish I had some spare cash. Love that Brumley tone!

------------------
Tim Whitlock
'58 Fender 1000, '56 Fender Stringmaster, '65 Twin Reissue, Niomi lap steel, old Magnatone tube amp.

steinar · Post by **steinar** » 10 Nov 2003 1:49 pm

Thanks Tim, for letting me know about that ZB on e-bay.
Looks like a very nice steel, so I´ll make a bid.
I´ve also seen one from Duane´s and one from Canada, so apparantly there are some around.
Appreciate it, Tim.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 10 Nov 2003 7:54 pm

Agood friend of mine just bought the ZB Custom D-10 from Duane's after hearing and playing mine two weeks ago on a job. He couldn't believe the unique tone and how well the guitar was set up.

Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 10 Nov 2003 8:12 pm

I guess what I meant to say is the 6550 is not a sub for a 6L6GC. Plate resistance is different and for it to perform right it would use a different output transformer. The 6550 is a different sound, a nice sound, but not a Twin. It is also a more powerful tube than a 6L6GC.
I think any mods other than Blackfacing the amp move away from the original sound. However I like the Healey mod (tantalum bypass caps), Orange Drop caps and silver mica caps, adding reverb to both channels, and using a 56K slope resistopr on one channel for steel. Another nice mod is to change the 10K midrange pot to 25K. Then you can then get more mids in the sound. I am sure all of these mods would move you away from the tone Brumley got.
I am not sure what the answer is other than duplicating the orignal Fender equipment, steel, volume pedal and getting into Tom's style and touch! That last one is the key and the toughest to do.
Getting the Twin back to Blackface specs and 6L6GC tubes should help.
I have done all of the mods above to Danny Naccarato's amp. It is a Dual Showman Reverb amp. The only mod we did not do was the25K mid pot. I hope we get some feedback from him as to how he likes the mods for steel. We left the slope resistor at 100K on channel 1 and added reverb to that channel.

steinar · Post by **steinar** » 11 Nov 2003 12:05 am

Thanks for letting me know about the Duaine ZB, Kevin. I just noticed it on his web page last night.
And thanks to you, Ken, for clarifying, now the fog is really lifting!
So, just to make sure that I have got it right: The only modification that should be done to the Twin/Showman for my specific purpose, is to Blackface them?
Other modifications may embellish the tone, but would also bring me further away from the "Brumleyesque" tonal quality that I seek?

I wondered about the "adding reverb to both channels," that you wrote. Does this mean that you would use both channels for the steel, or that you just wanted to have two channels with different sounds available?

After having read your answers, Ken, I fully understand the first reply I got to my initial post: "Ken Fox, where are you."
Thank you for sharing your vast knowledge on this issue!

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 12 Nov 2003 8:05 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And about the ZB, - I understand the importance this steel has in in recreating the particular sound that I´m after.
Would a True Tone pick up help my Zum in this respect?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although I am sure Jerry Wallace would work with you to try and acheive a certain tonality, I doubt this would get the sound you seek. I have a TT on my Zum u12 now, and although it it a remarkable pickup and my Zum sounds great, it sounds not at all like my ZB, using same amp, pedals, fingers etc...

steinar · Post by **steinar** » 12 Nov 2003 2:38 pm

Thanks, Dave.

I had reached the same conclusion after talking to others, and you confirmed what I thought: There is no way other than getting the Real Thing.
Thanks to Kevin Hutton, I have gotten touch with a real ZB expert - Greg Jones - who is very helpful. And the Man himself - Mr. Brumley - very graciously gave me great advice.
So again, I´m very, very grateful to all of you who have contributed with your knowledge on this matter.
And in a larger context, this wide spread interest in how to achieve the Brumley sound, is just another testimony to the great legacy of this Hall of Fame player - Tom Brumley.