Why not Just use a tube amp?

Bob Smith · Post by **Bob Smith** » 26 Oct 2003 7:16 am

Seems like all the effects, processors, and gadgets, are used to make a solid state amp sound like a sweet tube amp. Ive been playing a short time and have tried a few amps and nothing sounds as nice to me as a Twin Reverb. Why not use the real thing? What do ya think? Bob

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 26 Oct 2003 7:41 am

If you can get that sound in a very versatile package that weighs 30, 40, 50lbs, puts out 100--250 watts and puts all sorts of controls at your fingertips (and doesn't need to be retubed @ $70--$130 every couple of years-----well there's one answer to the question. Of course the key is the word IF. Surely not everyone is convinced that the simulation is as good as the real deal. And there's plenty of folks holding their breath whenever a solar storm threatens to turn their digital units into another blinking 8888 readout.
There sure is nothing quite like the smell of warming tubes in the morning. Smells like.......victory.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 26 Oct 2003 8:13 am

nothing sounds as nice to me as a Twin Reverb

Then, clearly, you should use a Twin Reverb.

This is as personal a choice as brand of guitar you use or which car you drive. I am very partial to the sound of a tube preamp into a good clean solid state power amp. Some like the hybrid the other way (SS pre and tube power amp) and others love the Peavey, Evans, or Webb SS sound.

Personally I've never met an amp I liked EVERY NIGHT, in EVERY ROOM. I used a Showman for a while and then a Twin until I got tired of lugging them around and there were situations where my Tele whacking buddy with a Twin blew me off stage (granted, in my earlier days

) and I wanted to throw the Twin in a dumpster (but I couldn't lift it high enough to get it in there).

My current favorite amp, for tone and weight is my old 1970 Standel with an Altec 15, a very tubelike solid state amp, but it has its own problems -- as I've found with every amp I've ever used. My conclusion is that there IS NO HOLY GRAIL. The other night I picked up our guitar player's little Pro Reverb and it felt twice as heavy as my Standel. Brought back memories.

I do agree with my buddy Jon, however, I do love the smell of 'em tubes warming up and love the sound of a tube amp at low to moderate volume. I guess that's why I currently have five amps. I love certain things about them all and would have a hard time figuring out which to sell. My old '65 Bassman sounds GREAT in the studio.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 26 October 2003 at 08:39 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 26 Oct 2003 9:29 am

Weight seems to be the biggest factor. If you want to get rich, full low notes out of your back neck, you need a low of tube power. To get a lot of tube power you need two heavy transformers, which can add 15 or 20 pounds to the weight of an amp.

I love the sound of my Mesa/Boogie 50/50 power amp, but I hate carrying it around.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
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Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 26 Oct 2003 10:51 am

I have a Vibrosonic. Someone pointed out to me that I only have to carry it for 5 MINUTES at a time. And for that I get to listen to it for HOURS!

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 26 Oct 2003 11:59 am

I only have to carry it for 5 MINUTES at a time. And for that I get to listen to it for HOURS!

And you wil spend YEARS paying the spinal surgeon while your herniated disks and related injurues cause pain for a LIFETIME!

D Schubert · Post by **D Schubert** » 26 Oct 2003 1:45 pm

Okay, what is the smallest classic Fender tube amp setup that you can still use on a gig with a drummer? A Deluxe Reverb with a 12" JBL? A Bandmaster Reverb Head and a single 15" cabinet? Vibrolux Reverb? Pro Reverb? Vibroverb? Too bad that Fender never made a half-size Semi-Twin Reverb...

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 26 Oct 2003 4:10 pm

"Good tone and plenty of power"

"Small and light-weight"

Boys, you just have to pick which one is more important. You can't have it both ways!

When the sound (and being heard) is really important, I bring out the "big guns" (180 watt tube Fender, or the 260 watt SS Peavey.)

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 26 Oct 2003 4:25 pm

Minimum requirements to play in a band with drums? I've had my Deluxe Reverb out a couple of times now (silverface w/6L6 tubes, solid state rectifier and 12" Weber California speaker, similar characteristics and output to JBL) and it's just borderline. If the band gets too excited and I have to push it it goes over the edge into the gravel. I have a Showman (4x6L6) and a Weber 15" in a Marrs cab and it has plenty of power for a bar gig. I'm not sure what lies in between in terms of a 2x6L6 amp with bigger transformers and more clean output. Maybe the Pro?

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 26 Oct 2003 4:32 pm

Buck,
I lifted the body of your D12 Emmons the other day. Your definatly gonna need that Vibrosonic to keep your balance!

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 26 Oct 2003 4:40 pm

This is exactly why I use a VHT 2/90/2 power amp. Yes, it is heavy but I thankfully don't have to tote it. It sounds mighty fine using a Profex II, Mesa Boogie Studio Pre, or my Evans Preamps as the front end.

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God Bless,
Steve Stallings

www.pedalsteeler.com

JB Arnold · Post by **JB Arnold** » 26 Oct 2003 9:08 pm

You pay for your tone with your back boys.

Gimme that twin reverb every day...

JB

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Fulawka D-10 9&5
Fessenden D-10 8&8
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel
www.buddycage.net

http://www.nrpsmusic.com/index.html

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 26 Oct 2003 9:32 pm

Well, I'm just back from my weekly bar thing and once again I'm so conflicted---a good half of my playing is more guitar-like than your traditional country steel playing and it sounds kickass great thru the Deluxe Reverb. But the other half just doesn't work when I push it over the headroom line. Tonight is just confirmation of what I thought was happening.
Gotta step up to something bigger (gotta get the Vibrosonic Reverb repaired!!). Unfortunately it also means I have to find the right pedal too that can give me the sound of the Deluxe being pushed without getting into Robert Randolph territory (I've already got a pedal that can do that!).

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 Oct 2003 10:14 pm

First thing I would try is putting a mike in front of the deluxe. Hank's being Hank's that might not work out. So...
The next thing I would do is take the 2nd input of whatever channel you plugged into the deluxe and run a cable to another amp. With 2 amps you should be able to find a way to get the sound you want. I have never heard a pedal that matched the sound of a Fender running a little hot. I guess it might be easyer to just run a cable from the volume pedals 2nd output for the other amp. I'm not sure why but I've always daisy chained them.

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 26 October 2003 at 10:18 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 27 Oct 2003 12:04 am

I used to play through a Fender Pro Reverb with 2 12" JBL speakers. No problem playing bar gigs with a drummer - it had plenty of power.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 27 Oct 2003 5:13 am

decided not to post it after I wrote it

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 27 October 2003 at 05:16 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Oct 2003 8:44 am

Why not just use a tube amp? Because tube amps are heavy, unreliable, expensive to maintain, and they distort at high volumes.

If you play traditional country music in a venue with a good PA and monitors, then you can use a medium-sized tube amp and mic it. But if you play with loud drums and bass at rock club volume levels in dives with poor PAs, few or no monitors, not enough mics and channels, then only the biggest, heaviest tube amps will do. You need something like Donny's old Super Twin (180 watts, 100lbs.), or maybe two Twins stacked (160-220 watts, 2x75lbs.).

One solution is to break up the package. I just got a Custom Vibrasonic amp head, which is like the amp part of a Twin Reverb. It's about 100 watts and weighs a little over 40 lbs. It's easy to carry by itself, and balances reasonably well with a small speaker cabinet in the other hand. It has great tone at moderate volumes, but I haven't tried it at top volume yet. I suppose you could play through two of these, but two amp heads (if I could find another one) and two speaker cabinets is a lot of equipment to haul around, and a lot of the dives I play in have serious space limitations.

Another solution might be something like the new Fender Bassman 300 amp head. It has 6 6L6s, 300 watts, and weighs 75lbs. It could probably be played though a single 15" kevlar black widow in a small cabinet. Sure it's a bass amp. But the old Fender Bassman was great for steel, and the 300 has a 10 channel EQ built in, a tuner jack, and a phone jack. This could be the ideal compact setup of loud, clean tube sound for steel.

I'm also exploring the other direction with a POD XT into a NV 400. The Twin and tube preamp simulations sound good up to moderate volumes, but it all begins to sound like a stressed out Peavey at high volume. It might work better with a NV 1000. Or maybe it just needs a full range PA type speaker system to authentically reproduce the complex simulation of the POD.

So any way you look at it, I've got a ways to go before I get what I want. But currently I'm out of bread.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 27 Oct 2003 10:34 am

Why not just use a tube amp? Because tube amps are heavy, unreliable, expensive to maintain, and they distort at high volumes.

I disagree with everything after "heavy", David. I've been using Mesa/Boogie tube amps for over 20 years now. I've found them to be very reliable - I've only had one breakdown that I couldn't fix myself with a screwdriver and soldering iron.

Expensive to maintain? Some people think tubes are like strings - they change them just because "it's time". I've never retubed any of my amps. If they aren't broken, why fix them? My tubes sound just fine to me.

Distort at high volumes? Well, I like the way tube amps sound at high volumes a lot better than I like equivalent solid state amps. If you're playing at levels where four 6L6's can't cut it, you're a candidate for hearing loss anyway. At those volumes, my ears distort worse than the amp does.

But if you play with loud drums and bass at rock club volume levels in dives with poor PAs, few or no monitors, not enough mics and channels, then only the biggest, heaviest tube amps will do. You need something like Donny's old Super Twin (180 watts, 100lbs.), or maybe two Twins stacked (160-220 watts, 2x75lbs.).

I've been on some pretty loud stages, but I can't remember one that a pair of 60 watt Boogies couldn't handle. Yeah, they're heavy, but they are far from being the "biggest, heaviest tube amps" available. I currently use a Mesa 50/50 power amp and play a lot of outdoor concerts with just two 12" EVM speakers. If I got any louder, it would knock me out of my seat.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Oct 2003 11:09 am

Well, b0b, I guess I'll find out this weekend if the 4 6L6s in my Vibrasonic will play clean and loud enough. You're right, this is at a point where ear plugs may be advised - our drummer wears them.

There are probably any number of rack setups that will deliver clean, high volume, tube sound. But right now I'm trying to keep it cheap and simple. In terms of combos and amp heads, I know Mesas are some of the best amps made these days, but I tried their highest powered amp head (Road King) and just couldn't get that rectumfryer to play loud AND clean (fantastic sounding guitar amp though).

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 27 Oct 2003 1:33 pm

You should try one of these, Dave.

(click on the little hardwood boogie)

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<img align=left src="http://home.att.net/~michael.holland.2000/images/littleboogie.jpg" border="0">

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 27 Oct 2003 3:01 pm

Some Mesa/Boogie amps have a switch to turn off the tube rectifier and use diodes instead. On my Maverick prototype (40 watts) the switch is labeled Vintage/Bold, and Bold is the diode setting. Not exactly intuitive, I know...

Tube rectifiers rob you of headroom - They don't respond to fast transient current demand as well as diodes. They aren't in the signal path, so they don't affect tone, but they affect the envelope. Diode-based power supplies are better for steel, in my opinion.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 27 Oct 2003 3:33 pm

David, I just retubed my Custom Vibrasonic with Tesla JJs and it sounds great. I had the volume set at 4 with one of the loudest bands I've ever played with and was almost too loud. I wore my earplugs! The JJs sound better to my ears than the Sovtecs and the Svetlanas.

It was worth the investment. I don't think I'll be going back to solid state any time soon.

My two cents!
Dave[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 27 October 2003 at 03:35 PM.]

Susan Alcorn (deceased) · Post by **Susan Alcorn (deceased)** » 27 Oct 2003 4:27 pm

Like everyone says, different amps for different purposes. I love the tube amps for their warmth, but there is aomething in the directness of the sound -- in the attack -- that I think tends to get lost in a tube. Solid State amps seem to be much more quicly responsive. But for a rock sound, the cranked up and distorted Fender amp just sounds so great. I think the secret is to get a high quality preamp and modularize if you can.

Heavy amps -- I of all people am not good at picking up heavy amplifiers, but if you get a dolly, learn how to use the weight of the amplifier and get some help when you need it, I think you're OK. However, I'd much rather pay for a chiropractor than for the shrink I would need if I had too many nights with unbearable tone. [This message was edited by Susan Alcorn on 27 October 2003 at 04:29 PM.]

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 27 Oct 2003 6:00 pm

However, I'd much rather pay for a chiropractor than for the shrink I would need if I had too many nights with unbearable tone.

From my experience, they cost about the same and neither has long lasting effects.

I've found that a tube amp and a transistor amp compliment each other nicely and both fit on the dolly.

Susan Alcorn (deceased) · Post by **Susan Alcorn (deceased)** » 28 Oct 2003 10:39 am

So true, Chas.