Digi 002 Rant

Pete Grant · Post by **Pete Grant** » 24 Apr 2003 8:15 pm

Boy, I can't tell which doesn't have their act together more--me or Digidesign, maker of ProTools.

Last October, after a fairly lucrative animation account, I bought a Digi 002. I'd get the PC or Mac to use with it later. Even though I had a 1.7 GHz Pentium III and a Mac G3, those CPUs weren't supported. OK, I understand; it's multi-track digital audio. Since a few of my friends have the high end ProTools on Mac, I decided to get a G4, in spite of my far from embracing Steve Jobs' decision to put Al Gore on the Board of Directors of Apple. Maybe that was my first mistake. No, probably my second. In retrospect, I think the 002 was the first mistake.

When I was about to order my G4 a few weeks ago, every ProTools setup but the Digi 002 had a new OS X version. The 002 was soon to be released. They call that "vaporware" for a darned good reason.

So, instead of ordering an earier model G4 that would actually boot in OS 9.2.2, allowing me to use the current shipping version of ProTools for Digi 002, I ordered a brand new dual processor G4 with 2 Gigs of RAM that _only_ boots in OS X--Classic mode isn't supported. Profoundly stupid of me, since I'm trying to mix an album and get it the darned thing out before summer. When I talked to tech support today, they said, "Oh, yes, the software will probably be out _sometime_ this summer."

Also, when I talked to tech support today, I discovered that my free calls to tech support had run out (gee, I hadn't placed any) in January, just before I discovered that, indeed, the Digi 002 WILL run (in a limited fashion--no plug-ins) on a beige tower G3 with maximum RAM. I've been doing preliminary mixes with the G3.

So, now I sit here with a brand new G4 that won't work with the Digi 002, while I wait for a company with draconian and capricious tech support rules and a wildly fluctuating production timeline to remedy the problem. I used to think of myself as a computer professional, but at this point, I have my doubts about my ability to learn basic lessons about the abilities and promises of hardware and software companies. Well, I guess that's why they call it the "bleeding edge" of technology.

Pete Grant
www.petegrant.com

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 24 Apr 2003 9:13 pm

DigiDesign is truly the Evil Empire in my book. Maybe they should merge with Clear Channel...

(a satisfied Paris Pro user

)

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 24 Apr 2003 9:56 pm

Al Gore and Alsihad, incompatible?

Tommy Detamore · Post by **Tommy Detamore** » 25 Apr 2003 4:57 am

I'm with you, John...

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Apr 2003 7:19 am

Reminds me of what IBM did to themselves with the proprietary 'MicroChannel' architecture with the PS/2.

I too give Digi a D- in 'works and plays well with others'. Although not nearly as 'potentially cool' as the full ProTools setup, I do just fine with Sonar running on a decent pentium class machine. All the interoperability with plug-ins, 3rd party stuff like SoundForge, and other programs that operate on PCM/wave files works fine. With a good control surface and multiport I/O, it becomes even more powerful.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 27 Apr 2003 8:31 pm

Pete,

I booted ProTools out of my studio a while ago for similar bull.....

I wanted (really needed) to use a dual monitor system and the only video card that Digi and Apple supported was around $800. For the video card. I sold the Protools setup and the G3 and bought a generic PC and a Steinberg Nuendo system with infinitely better sound and had money left over. I can easily run 32 tracks and more with processing on each track on a 1Gz PC (an Althion at that).

Apple and Digi make some beautiful looking hardware, but it's not worth the hassle. My PC is butt ugly, but it's hidden behind soundproofing anyway.....

Oh yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath on Digi supporting system 10 dual processor systems on the Apple any time soon. System 10 is a real operating system (there is real multitasking) and I'd bet that the Digi Mac programmers will have some issues with making it work.

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www.tyack.com

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 27 Apr 2003 10:30 pm

8 years ago I was looking to get a DAW and the two main choices were Pro Tools and Sonic Solutions, which was/is the best sounding of the two. So I bought Sonic, even though the learning curve was steep and very unfriendly and the company was becoming a culture of arrogance. A couple years ago I purchased a second, used, Sonic system and G3 from a dealer, the same one I had bought a lot of stuff from, that was going out of business. This one came with a "Trojan Horse" which wiped out all my hard drives 4 days before an important "show and tell". (yes I tested it before I pugged everything in, but sometime after everything was hooked up, I hit the 'magic' combination).

During my full "thrash and flail" I put in a call to Sonic's tech support. I needed a simple, yes I can do it or no I can't answer, I didn't need to know why, I just needed a yes or no. I was informed that I would have to pay a large fee to hear an answer and our conversation rapidly deteriorated after that. I won't repeat what I said, but I can't ever call them again. So....

I got Digital Performer DP3 last fall, I don't think it's the best, but it sounds good and is pretty friendly to operate. It's also compatible with Bias Peak which is where I prefer to do editing and I keep my plug-ins. I'm having to use a G4 dual 1 gig running 9.2, the G3 barely had enough horsepower to run Peak and the plug-ins.

Rich Weiss · Post by **Rich Weiss** » 27 Apr 2003 11:27 pm

I got Digi 001 a year ago. I also got a Mac G4 800 at that time. I couldn't be happier. I will not upgrade. I've heard nothing but complaints about the 002, and about OSX and PT 6. I'll be staying with OS9 and 5.2 for quite a long time. I put in a lot of money into high end preamps, a Rosetta A/D converter, and a Benchmanrk D/A and a ton of plug ins. Digi was not prepared to release OSX and PT6 when it did. There's nothing but bugs in it. Unfortunate timing for you. I wish you were having better luck.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 28 Apr 2003 8:21 am

Another rant against Digi is their two tiered product line. While it is true that most big league studios use ProTools, this isn't the same software or architecture that you or I might buy with a Pro1 or Pro2 system. What the big guys use is the TDM architecture, which would start out around $20K for the capabilities of my Nuendo system. While there is a cosmetic similarity between the low end and high end Pro Tools software, all of the plugins are different, and completely inferior with the low end systems (at least that was my experience) in those rare cases where it was actually available.

In the Steinberger systems, the sound engine and plugins are completely the same from the very low end Cubase systems to a high end Nuendo system.

I like that.

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www.tyack.com

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 28 Apr 2003 9:35 am

Pete - Do yourself a favor - keep the Mac and get Digital Performer and a MOTU 2408 Mk3 or one of their firewire boxes like the 12/96. It will run on OS 9 or X and on that Dual 1 gig Mac you'll have 50 to 70 tracks with full plugs and automation and no tech support issues with the company.It's a very elegant system,with really well evolved software and it has never crashed on me.I'm into my 2nd year on it and couldn't be happier. It is BY FAR the most cost effective and stable of all the host-based DAWs. And with DP3 or the upcoming DP4 on OS X+(or so called "Jaguar" OS),there will be no need to use DAE or MAS audio "engines",FreeMidi,OMF,etc because all audio/midi is manipulated at the OS core level making it even faster and with latency approaching zero. BTW,DP3 uses SDII files so all your work is transferrable to Pro Tools,Nuendo and other systems.Make records,not phone calls. -MJ-

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Apr 2003 1:34 pm

For me Digi is really 3 tiered.
Entry level home studio and learning versions.
The general workhorse TDM 24 bit versions
and the 192k stuff.
Each has it's place, but the low end shouldn't really be compared to the high end. Sonar is cool, I haven't tried Nuendo, but the specs are good.
I am not surprised at the OS X teething pains for a 1st generation software. It is essentially a totally new set of calls under the old interface's update.
I am waiting for a bit, but mostly because I uses DP3 on the PT hardware and it isn't OS X yet.
I am surpised that your Mac won't boot native OS 9.2.2. OS X / Jaguar has it. I use it all the time on a twin 1000 G4 no problems and switch back and forth for Finalcut.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 April 2003 at 02:46 PM.]

Larry Chung · Post by **Larry Chung** » 28 Apr 2003 2:35 pm

Hi Pete!:

I'm sorry to hear about your woes, but hope that you and Phyllis are going to be at Spring Strawberry?

I picked up a Peavey Solo (on your advice) and am ready to pick my ZB under the stars!

Hope you are well and Megan sends her best, too!

lc

Pete Grant · Post by **Pete Grant** » 29 Apr 2003 3:30 pm

Hi Larry,

No Strawberry for us this Spring (darn). Phyllis and I are going to Germany in July. Glad to hear you'll be playing your ZB under the stars.

Pete Grant · Post by **Pete Grant** » 29 Apr 2003 3:47 pm

It's great to hear from a bunch of old friends (and newer ones) on this subject. From this vantage point it's clear I should have done more research.

I may just go to MOTU, since I have an OK Mac that I bought just to use for my home studio. And, yes, the newest G4s only boot in OSX. That's a feature, I suppose.

I'll have to tell you guys that I got EXCELLENT tech support on my Digi from Sweetwater (www.sweetwater.com). I'm really glad I bought from them. I had called pretty late on Friday and they're in Indiana, so they called _me_ on Monday and had me capably and cheerfully up and running in a matter of minutes--nothing at all like Digi's gruff gorillas, just expertise happily shared. It was such a relief.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 29 Apr 2003 7:30 pm

I also had a good experience with Sweetwater. I got the MOTU, 896, MTP/AV and DP3.11, I figured that since they were all made by the same company, there was a really good chance that they would be compatible with each other, and the G4 seems to like them also. I also got the Radikal SAC control surface, I liked it better than the Mackie. The JL Cooper stuff looks really good, but it's a little pricey.

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 6 May 2003 4:15 pm

I'll agree that the support you get from any product purchased at Sweetwater is excellent. You can find better deals price wise but not the same service whatsoever.

I live in a ProTools stronghold now (Phoenix) and I regularly transfer stuff back and forth via .omf files. Of course, I'm also a Paris user like John and Tommy and it's hand's down the best sounding rig out there (I also have Nuendo). Nowadays, almost everything out there has some really good features, both the economical stuff and the high end things. Find something that suits your needs and get used to it. You probably won't go wrong.

Mike

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 6 May 2003 4:41 pm

I have had good luck with the Motu/DP stuff also.

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 06 May 2003 at 05:43 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 7 May 2003 1:22 am

MOTU stuff is solid, on my system DP3.11 is still a bit flakey, but I imagine they are spending more time doing a solid OS X version that maintainance on OS 9 stuff.

USA Digi tech support is a breath of sunshine compared to dealing with the french support structure in fractured english. There are some great guys there, but france is not the land of after market service, except in over two star eateries.
Still I listen to my old analog recordings and they sound dated in comparison to the MOTU/DP stuff.

Scott Appleton · Post by **Scott Appleton** » 6 Aug 2003 9:44 am

The new presonus firewire interface is the bomb.
It has two tube pre's with conroll for warmth, ADAT
in out, 8 analog in out, spdf in out, midi in out,
acts as a stand alone mixer and has no latency due to the mix pre computer.
Great Scott

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MSA D10 Classic XL
Acoustic 165 100W tube
71 Tele, Regal 45, Gretch
Lap, Columbia Lap, Line 6

seldomfed · Post by **seldomfed** » 6 Aug 2003 1:27 pm

Dan,
What interfaces do you use then with Nuendo?
I need to do 12-16 simultaneous inputs min.
I was thinking about upgrading to an Alesis HD, or other HD, then xfer to do post prod. on the PC to try and avoid the OS thrash that seems neverending. But if there were reliable PC recording solutions, a single platform would be nice. I'm past due to upgrade from ADAT's and SAWpro - although both have worked on my PC flawlessly for 8 years!

btw, http://www.pyramix.co.uk/ is taking Sonic Solns. business because of the support issue. I talked to a local spoken-word audio house about picking up their slack and they are very happy with Pyramix. Whos knows. http://www.merging.com/

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Chris Kennison
Ft. Collins, Colorado
"There is no spoon" www.book-em-danno.com

[This message was edited by seldomfed on 06 August 2003 at 02:31 PM.]

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 7 Aug 2003 5:03 am

I have a studio full of different types of recording gear....If you want something that is fool proof, buy yourself an Akai DPS24...
You can track, mix, master, and cut a CD ALL ON THE SAME MACHINE !!!....No computer crashes and no problems with any software conflicts, or any of that fun stuff that goes with running a computer based DAW...It has flying faders and a great setup with automation and all for right around $2600 or so after discounts..The Operating System is contantly being upgraded, and new features are being added on a regular basis...The sound is very clear, and probably the best sounding ( if not one of the best sounding ) all in one units out there...Add a pair of monitor speakers, and a mic and a couple of cables, and you're off to the races !!... No more computer conflicts , no more crashes...You also end up with some hair left on your head, as you won't be pulling it out anymore !!!....Jim

seldomfed · Post by **seldomfed** » 7 Aug 2003 11:58 am

Ya, my studio is full of it too

I seriously am considering the Mackie HD and a D8B to avoid another computer integration effort. But then again they're all computers really. The trade off with Akai, Mackie, or Roland boxes etc. is your bound to that solution vs. the PC or MAC DAW platforms where flexibility is king. Modularity lets you manage maintenance as well. If an Akai PC is down, your down. If you record to ADAT, or a HD box (Mackie, Alesis) for example, you can just swap a deck and your back in business. Plus I need a fast, standard backup solution so customers can have their projects. CDR doesn't that work well anymore due to file sizes. Upgrade flexibility has value. But turn-key is nice too. And it all costs big time. Ideally a hybrid system with PC doing some, but not all of the work is where I'll land. So I'm in 'analysis-paralysis' mode and I hate it. I've worked with computers for 30 years and recorded for 20 -so I know you just have to decide and move on while you lick your wounds as your new purchase becomes obsolete 5min. after you buy it! grrrrrrrrrr

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Chris Kennison
Ft. Collins, Colorado
"There is no spoon"
www.book-em-danno.com