Low end - why???

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 23 May 2002 9:34 am

I'm curious about why there is such a premium placed on low frequency response in the world of steel guitar amplification. Most steel combo amps are loaded with big, HEAVY 15" speakers to pump out plenty of bottom end. Why is that?

I'm a newer player, but in my several years of backing singers in working bands, I've felt that:
a) I need to keep out of the low end of the sonic spectrum (I'm talking TONE-wise, not necessarily NOTE-wise) to clear that space out for the bass player and kick drum, and
b) I need to keep away from the low-mids to let the singer (especially a male vocalist) occupy that area.

I also dig the West Coast sounds --like Tom Brumley with Buck-- and I don't hear the steel occupying the low end side of the tonal spectrum at all on those recordings. But they sound GREAT!

In country music, I feel like the steel should sit somewhere between the vocalist and the cymbals on the tonal spectrum. Is this placing too much of a limitation on the instrument?

When did low end become so important? Is this a C6th thing? Or something that is of importance to the unaccompanied soloist? Cuz I just don't see the need for powerful lows coming from the steel in a (C&W) band format.

I bought a combo amp voiced for steel because I thought I was supposed to, but I'm getting tired of hauling around that big ol' 15" speaker!

I'd like to hear any input Forumites might have on this subject.

Mr. A. King Back

-Los Angeles, CA[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 23 May 2002 at 10:36 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 23 May 2002 9:51 am

I'm sure that there are technically-minded Forumites who have some real technical insight into this question. My sense about it, and it's only that, is that you need a 15" (or two 12") for several reasons. First of all, power handling. At large volumes a big speaker won't break up and distort as readily. Secondly, the extremes of the frequency band (lows and highs) tend to dissipate quickly out front of the stage. What sounds rather extreme on-stage can sound perfectly balanced 20 feet in front Third, the low-end response of a 15" is not even close to what a bass-player gets. What you're getting is just enough response to give the low notes definition, not to actually create large bass resonance, as a true bass guitar and amp would. So if the tone controls are properly set, you shouldn't collide with the bass player, anymore than a lead guitarist or pianist would. So anyway, that's a start. I'm sure there will be many other thoughts on this. Take care.

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 23 May 2002 11:54 am

I'll agree with Jeff and say, further, that it's the rich middle you get from high watts and 2x12" or 15" that appeals to me. But also yes, Greg, the C6 with big chords and fat strings does put extra demand on low freq performance.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 23 May 2002 3:39 pm

Moved to "Electronics" section.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 23 May 2002 4:22 pm

It may also be noteworthy that Jerry Byrd in a recent posting in No Peddlers stated that he keeps the treble control on his amp (A Fender Twin Reverb) almost all the way off and the bass control all the way on. He wants that low end to stand out as did Curley Chalker and Bobby Garrett. Bill Stafford is also a fine proponent of this tonal setting as well. The tonal contrast of Jerry Byrd with Hank Williams senior and Don Helms also with Hank Williams stand out as fine definitions of tonal choices well taken and suited for the singer and player. It's a personal thing almost like finger prints and the steel guitar lends itself to these variations better than any other instrument in my humble opinion. Name any ten steel guitarists and you will have ten distinct tonal colorations and still we hear the cry that it all sounds alike.....EXCUSE ME !!

Regards, Paul

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 23 May 2002 6:50 pm

I share Greg's sentiments, and I was just a day or two ago thinking of posting on the exact same topic! I think Greg put it a lot better than I would have. In a band situation (of which I've had precious few) I find I stay on on the top 9 strings or so of my U12. The same is true when playing along with BIAB or prerecorded rhythm tracks. Anything below that and I conflict with the bass guitar and kick drum. I know there are circumstances when the steel is made the dominant instrument and its full range (including low end) is needed, but I haven't come across that very much at all in my (very limited) experience, and, more significantly, I haven't noticed that coming up in modern recordings (admittedly just country music) except maybe the baritone steel solo by Paul Franklin in Alan Jackson's "Who's Cheatin' Who". Even in that solo Paul twangs the sound so brightly that it has more mid and high than low register to the tone.

I'm not saying the deep tones in a steel shouldn't be played or emphasized, it's just that in my field of view the mid and upper register is where the PSG seems to land most often in today's music.

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Bill L | My steel page | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?

Bob Metzger · Post by **Bob Metzger** » 24 May 2002 2:08 am

Different people have different ideas and taste. What if you were playing trio gigs (w/ bass and drums)? Then you might like a little extra low end to fill it out some more. What a boring world it would be if everyone had the same ideas about everything (or just low end).

Bob M.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 24 May 2002 2:16 am

In today's music (most of it, anyway) the bass and drums are much more prominent than they used to be! Most bands mike all the drums and cymbals regardless of where they're playing (how big the venue is). Bass has gone from to a supporting role to almost being a lead instrument. If I had to comment, I'd say not only the "low end of the steel guitar", but everything gets "lost" in today's music!

Be that as it may, the high treble tones that were once common with the steel guitar are now replaced with rounder, fuller tones. Years ago, straight guitars played these rounder, fuller tones...and the steel just "stuck out" with all it's treble. Nowadays, it's just the opposite, with the straight guitars screaming with treble, and the steel laid back...with those round-full tones that often get lost in the noise.

All this is not meant to be a rant, but just to highlight how the steel has gone from "twang" to "mellow" in the last 40 years.

To play the steel of 40 years ago, like Brumley, Mooney, or Stubbs...you're right, you don't need 15's and 300 watts. But you need it today.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 24 May 2002 6:48 am

I really like the fullness that is obtained by a 15" speaker, in fact, with my rack setup , I use two speaker enclosures with 15" Black Widows in them. In E9th, I really appreciate the sound when I play the 6 8 and 10 string grip. You have to have some meat in there and I feel it requires a 15" speaker.
Erv

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 24 May 2002 8:10 am

This is just my very personal point of view:

Most owners of a steel guitar and therfore potential amp-buyers are what one could call "bed-room" players (me too, BTW :O). Steel is a rather thin sounding instrument (especially since E9th) and "bottom" is believed by many players to "fatten-up" the sound. When you play alone, one may think that it sounds better (kind of orchestrated?) with lots´a "bottom". The fatter the better? Booowham... ask their spouses what THEY think of it and you´ll get a completely different point of view

.

I think that a good reason to use a 15" speaker may actually be to cut some highs and shrillness predominant in some tunings.
Also, keep in mind that two 12" speakers have more surface than a single 15" too. Similarly, many bass setups will use 10" speakers (4 or more). So the 15" speaker may not have been introduced for "bottom".

... J-D.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 24 May 2002 11:13 am

Think of the tone of an acoustic guitar. The prominent sounds coming from it is in the upper mids and highs. To have those notes sound stable and in tune the guitar needs to have a strong fundamental overtone. This is in the low end of the guitar tone.

The stability and strength of the low end is one of the reasons that that an old Emmons PP has a tone that steel players like. Bells and balls !

If you are talking about amps there is some great stuff out there that works fine with only a 12" speaker. I just played a slew of gigs with my old fender deluxe and it worked fine as long as I could get into the PA.

Bob
[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 24 May 2002 at 01:40 PM.]

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 24 May 2002 2:40 pm

The difference between playing live and on a recording,is considerable. When playing live, a fat sound is preferable, but on a recording, even if you have a fat sound, it will be EQed, compressed, and slotted into a range that doesn't interfere with the rest of the recording. In some cases, it will be mixed out so bad, that you may as well have phoned in your part. But live is where you get to shine, so stop trying to sound like the record.
That's my rant for today. Was it good for you too?
8~)=

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 24 May 2002 4:18 pm

Andy's exactly right. There just is not enough room for all that low and low-mid, so engineers start thinning it out for a mix, so there is room for the bass and kick to fill the bottom out without being muddy. Bob Clearmountain starts cutting most everything below 150-200hz from instrument tracks and background vocals. That rule does not apply as much in a smaller ensemble setting, like a jazz trio, but for anything pop (and of course, that means country

) is going to get cut. I'm usually running anywhere from 60 to 80+ inputs in a pop mix, so you have to strive for clarity somewhere.

As for live...

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 24 May 2002 7:38 pm

I have a question.... Why should there be a difference between the way live mixes and recorded mixes are treated regarding the low end? If having multiple instruments competing for the low end is a bad thing on CDs, why is it ok to do on stage? I've been in a few bands where collisions of low frequency instruments were a problem. For me, clearing out the low ranges and leaving room for the bass, kick drum, tom toms, even the snare, helped a lot.

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Bill L | My steel page | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 25 May 2002 1:35 am

Jerry Sienfeld would have a field day with this topic, as all posts are " exactly the same , just different". !!

My non valid opinion is that when you have an amp capable of producing full clarity and definition at the bottom end your worries about the mids and highs are over. Because C6 and 12 string tunings are so common on Steel guitars , the Steel amps have evoloved and standardized in that direction as well. An amp with a 15" speaker is the "I can do it all" approach. One stop shopping if you will. I am not saying that the N400's or the N1000's are the final answer to Steel amps but they do rock the house across the whole tonal spectrum. We can send the band members running for cover long before the dang thing ( N1000 ) will start to break up ! I don't think there is or ever has been a written law, it's just easier to use an amp ( high power and a 15 ) that appears to be what has become the "NORM" . (Not the TV show.) Guitar players, when they turn it up ( me too) want it to sound a tad edgy, Steel players need it to sound crisp and clean , so let the evolution begin.

Did I win the ramble award ?
tp

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 25 May 2002 5:07 am

Most live bands are 3, 4, and five piece combos. There is a lot more room in the live mix than a nashville session, How many instruments and vocals are going in at once on a typical Faith Hill recording? My rule of thumb over the years was (and is) the bigger the band, the simpler I play.

Chuck Norris · Post by **Chuck Norris** » 26 May 2002 12:48 pm

Gregg,Bill, let me start by saying I have played bass with almost every steel player in the industry except very regretably Weldon Myrick, John Hughey, and Jerry Brightman. And with the exception of Julian Thorpe not one of these steel player`s ever stepped on my Bottom and Julian did it on purpose because at 14 I couldn`t follow his passing cord`s. On the other hand some Texas guitar player`s think they are Eldon Shamblin on honky-tonk steroid`s. Secondly most of the steel player`s I know could care less what Moonie,or Brumley or for that matter anything that`s going on in Nashboro, they play there own style of steel. Did I mention my favorite steel player of all time is Moonie? There is a wonderfull world of steel guitar on that other neck and even the lower strings on the E9th that your depriving your talent`s of just because your settling to be a me to player. Try something differant on the steel that`s how Buddy,Moon, Brumley, John and the other`s got to be where there at. And by the way as far as I have seen almost all of these player`s use 15s and a couple of hundred watt,s or more.
Happy Steelin
Chuck Norris NFM

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 26 May 2002 7:50 pm

Bob H,
Sounds like you've been talking to Mike Cass.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 27 May 2002 9:51 am

Chuck; I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed what you had to say !! It really rings a bell with me and while I do not pretend to be an Outlaw Steel Guitarist, I certainly do it my way. I play a D-12 Carter and I have the low G# (A) and E strings on my E9th neck. It has always made sense to have them and I use them all the time too. I never figured I got paid to sit out while someone else took the lead line.

I play something all the time and keep it out of the way of the lead player. I like to hide in the bass line and find counterpoint harmonies. Last week as we were playing a song in E, with an A major going to A minor I found a really pretty sound. I was playing on my middle E string similar to an E-Bow but without the rig. When the line changed from AM to Am, I slid up from the A to a C note and the blend was a thrill to achieve. The bass line was either and A or E and I added the C of Am just loud enough to be heard. It isn't too often you get to pull one of those pretty things but I surely enjoyed that one.

Thanks for reenforcing my musical thinking. And personally, I would be be totally ashamed of myself if I ever played over someone else. That to me is a mortal sin and God would get me for doing it !!

Regards, Paul