Do I need a preamp for a condensor mic?

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 27 Mar 2002 12:18 pm

I have access to a pair of Neumann KM184's.
I plan to record acoustic guitars, acoustic bass, and resophonic guitars, maybe even a Dobro.

I use a Yamaha AW 2816 digital recorder. The mic inputs for the XLR connectors have the 48v phantom power available.

I have recorded direct to the recorder inputs but the sensitivity is less than what I expected. I have to turn the gain on the recorder all the way up, and have mic very close the guitars.

Recording rookie.

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Fender Stringmaster T-8
PV N400
Dobro squareneck
Dobro roundneck
Lots of Taylors

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 27 Mar 2002 2:05 pm

Your mixer has "preamps" where the mic's plug in but as a studio engineer, I'd hardly call them true "mic preamps". If there's one piece of gear that I've grown to consider absolutely critical for good recording, it's a good microphone preamp. Really that is the most critical stage of all. It's where that tiny little voltage created by the microphone gets amplified to a level that can drive line levels and then be recorded. You can compare it to a microscope. If the optics aren't perfectly clean then whatever you magnify (amplify) will also magnify distortion or blurry information. An average mic into a decent mic preamp can sound worlds better than a great Neumann microphone into a crappy mic preamp. So a Neumann into a good mic preamp is the way to go. People are shocked when they switch to a decent mic preamp from the cheapos built into their mixers. For a real deal best bang for the buck pro level mic preamp, look into the Sytek (check ebay for his ads). He sells a 4 channel mic preamp for about $800. This is the cheapest way to get the best sound. For $200 bucks a channel it's hard to beat. The Neve, API, Manley, and other exotic stuff is more like $600 per channel. The cheap Bellari tube stuff is ok for the money and is quite cheap. For your KM-184 mics, I HIGHLY recommend a tube mic preamp as the KM-184 can be a little too crispy on top, especially on steel stringed instruments. But matched with tubes they are beautiful sounding mics. The best deal out there for a studio grade tube mic preamp is, yes, the Peavey VMP-2. This preamp is great and is less than $800 for two channels with a little bit of eq onboard as well. You will be truly amazed at the sonic improvement compared to your recorder's mic preamps.

Brad Sarno
Angelfish Studios
St. Louis

Mullen U-12/Fender Twin Reverb/Black Widow

Carter York · Post by **Carter York** » 27 Mar 2002 2:05 pm

Hi Ron,

I would recommend using a preamp *period* if
you are using mics. You will be able to have more control over your signal (and level) if you do. Additional signal processing will be available with some (compression, enhancer, de-esser,etc) I like the ART preamps, a friend has a couple I've borrowed, and currently I have a modest dBx 286a, and like that as far as solid state pre's go....

Carter

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 27 Mar 2002 2:33 pm

The high-end mikes you describe are designed to work through a high-end preamp. Cheaper mikes usually have higher output, since they're less concened with linearity (flat frequency response).

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 27 Mar 2002 6:58 pm

Thanks

Brad
Carter
Donny

Great advice and exactly what I needed to know.

Ron

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 28 Mar 2002 8:32 am

I use a Presonus BlueTube. I have heard mixed reviews, but for me they work perfect, and cheap too($145 for 2 cahnnels). I also use it as a direct box for Bass and PSG. It really sweetens the sound, and i dont have to rely on the cheepo pres in my mixer.

Good luck!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Michael Brebes · Post by **Michael Brebes** » 28 Mar 2002 10:14 am

The KM184 mics are phantom powered so make sure you get a mic pre that has 48V phantom power available on it. Those are nice expensive microphones, so putting them through a real cheap mic preamp won't get you what they are capable of.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 28 Mar 2002 12:45 pm

I would look into a Symetrix 302.It's a half-rack size box w/2 channels,phantom power of course and for around $300,they have a fine sound for any application and a lot of radio stations use them.I just used one the other day on a remote location classical recording of a 9' grand piano with 2 Neumann TLM 103s and I got a very clean sound.I have Manley,Langevin and Avalons in my studio rack and the little Symetrix keeps up with them.Plus,its small size makes it perfect for remotes.I also often use it w/two good mics and then line level out into my video camera when videotaping musical events. -MJ-

Joe E · Post by **Joe E** » 28 Mar 2002 1:52 pm

My 2 cents...

If you have pre amps in a machine that has a total cost of lets say 2000 bucks, those pre can not compare to a $800 or what ever upper $ individual pre amp.

With that being said...I have actually not heard a single bad thing about the two pre's available on the 2816 unit. IN fact I have heard lots of great reviews on these pre's including that they are better than the O1V and the O2r.

The mics you have described do have a harsh top end and could use the benifits of a tube pre. But you still can get great results with the setup you have.

With that also being said the new ART TPS channel at 150 bucks or so can give you great emulations of several pre's. Again its not a Neve or Manley etc... but a nice price break alternative.

I have a pair of the DBX 286 (among many others)and use them on acoustics all the time, and they sound great. (Street value is 225 or so each.)

It is all in the engineering of the total signal path. Try the on board pre's with the built in tube emulation on the 2816 and see what ya get.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Joe E on 28 March 2002 at 01:53 PM.]</p></FONT>

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 28 Mar 2002 3:55 pm

Thanks!

I did not know about the tube effect on the input on this recorder. I will try it first.

Ain't this forum great?

great advice from experienced folks who ain't trying to sell me something. Wow

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Fender Stringmaster T-8
PV N400
Dobro squareneck
Dobro roundneck
Lots of Taylors

JB Arnold · Post by **JB Arnold** » 30 Mar 2002 8:37 am

One thing I have found about the Mackie Mixers is that the built in mic pres they come with are absolutely killer. compare favorably to a lot of the higher end stand alone units. And the guy who turned me on to that would have made an extra sale if he'd kept his mouth shut-but he ab'd them for me and man, he was right-I bought an 8 channel mixer just for the pres, and later bought the 61 channel as well.

John

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"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
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