Recording Mic's

Allen · Post by **Allen** » 18 Dec 2001 9:09 pm

Ok you experts, I need to pick your brains, again.

I now have a Roland VS-890HD recorder and am looking for thoughts, experiences, and recommendations on microphones to use with it. I will be recording my steel, my wife's acoustic piano, and perhaps an acoustic guitar. No vocals.

My search on the forum did indicate that the Shure SM57 and SM58 mic's are good ones. What are the primary differencies? What other good mic's have you used and would recommend?

Additionally, I have a very good set of studio quality headphones, but what about speakers or monitors to use with this recorder?

Thanks,
Allen

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Allen Harry
Mullen D-10, 8 & 6
Nashville 1000

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 18 Dec 2001 11:21 pm

I`d recommend Audio-Technica AT 4035 condenser mic.Very versatile,not too expensive for the performance.Get a pair if you can afford two...

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Olli Haavisto
Polar steeler
Finland

Mike Dennis · Post by **Mike Dennis** » 19 Dec 2001 4:12 am

Just a thought...
The Roland recorders offer some microphone modeling modules in their effects banks.
You can only use those effects modules with the Roland Microphone that is offered for sale as an accossory with the unit.

This may be a less expensive way for you to have a varity of several different microphones to use.

Mics can be very expensive.

I haven't used those particular modules so I'm not quite sure how good they work.
But other effects modules like the amplifier simulators do work very well.

Maybe someone hear can add their 2 cents... if they have used the mic models on any of their projects.

good luck
Mike

Mike Dennis · Post by **Mike Dennis** » 19 Dec 2001 4:26 am

PS.

For acoustic guitar I would recommend the Sure SM81 condenser microphone. It has a very warm and rich sound. You should be able to use it for piano too… but you may need two…especially if it’s a large grand piano.
This microphone requires a phantom power source... which your Roland recorder does have.

The Sure SM58 is a good on stage live vocal mic... and the Sure SM57 will handle higher volume levels on stage... for miking very loud drums and guitar amplifiers.

I think these mics are better suited for live sound reinforcement, on stage. However, the SM 57 could also be used for recording your guitar amplifier.
The Sure SM 58 and 57 do not require a phantom power source.

[This message was edited by Mike Dennis on 19 December 2001 at 04:40 AM.]

Mike Brown · Post by **Mike Brown** » 19 Dec 2001 6:19 am

Two new Peavey studio mics were recently introduced at the Summer NAMM Show which were the Studio Pro M1 and the M2. I personally haven't had the opportunity to try these out yet but I can send more info to you if you will provide a mailing address. Here's a link to them on our website. http://www.peavey.com/events/studiopro_m1.html http://www.peavey.com/events/studiopro_m2.html

Mike Brown
Peavey Electronics Corporation

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 19 Dec 2001 11:35 am

If you want to make good recordings,you'll need several different kinds of mics.Piano and acoustic guitar are generally recorded in stereo and you can't go wrong w/a pair of AKG C-3000B mics.They're very close to 414s in quality and some like them better.I've used them on vocals and they're great for that,too. You can pick them up for around $2&change at Guitar Center.A couple of those and a couple 57s or 58s for amps and drums and you'll be set.There's a bunch of cheap mic preamps out there,but the BEST SOUNDING cheap ones I've heard are the Aphex Tubessence and the Symetrix 302 - both 2 channel units and both around $300.
The microphone modeling software is overrated.It's really just a cross reference between a bunch of EQ presets. It's supposed to make one mic sound like another.Problem - the differences between mics are often such that a more sophisticated(expensive)condenser mic like a Neumann U-87 will pick up high and low frequencies and other harmonic information and sonic textures that a dynamic mic like an SM-58 is just not gonna hear.It has to do with physics - not software.There is no way that a piece of software is going to be able to take the signal from a cheap mic and somehow add information that was not recorded in the first place.What it CAN do is subtract information and make a good mic sound bad or tweak one brand of mic to sound similar to a another brand of mic which already has a similar frequency response.The message in there is: If you want the sound of a high quality mic,you gotta have a high quality mic.

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 19 Dec 2001 12:10 pm

I too would recommend getting a pair of condenser mics. There a lots of great condensers that don't cost much more than a Shure dynamic. Check out this site. www.pacificproaudio.com/ . For $99.95, this is a great deal. These mics are Chinese made. A friend of mine bought a pair of these and they sound real good.

Michael Brebes · Post by **Michael Brebes** » 19 Dec 2001 12:26 pm

If you want to keep your mic count down, I would recommend a couple condensor mics. The AKGs are good. The Audio Technica 4035 is good. If you need something cheaper, and are sure you are not going to record vocals, the Oktava MC012s sound surprisingly good and can be purchased for $150 at Guitar Center and sometimes $200 for a pair. If you want a dynamic the SM57 is a standard and can be purchased for under $80, but they don't work well for piano or acoustic guitar.

John Rickard · Post by **John Rickard** » 20 Dec 2001 1:11 am

I agree with the Oktava MC012s. I have tried them on everything from Drum overhead mics to acoustic guitar. Get 2 if you can, they also make different pattern capsules that screw right on (well worth it). I listened to a drum mix I was working on and shut down all tracks except for 2 that I was using these mics as overheads and I could have actually used those tracks alone for a decent drum sound.
JR

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Slide It On Over

Chris Walke · Post by **Chris Walke** » 20 Dec 2001 8:58 am

These guys are all naming great mics that arent' too expensive. It depends on your budget. Are you willing to shell out a few hundred dollars for a decent condenser? Are you willing to double that price for two? It's always good to have 2 mics around.

You mention the SM58 & SM57. Is this your budget?

If so, a pair of 57s is a great choice. These mics can be used for any purpose, when you get right down to it. At under $100 each, good mics for the money. Reliable, rugged, versatile. As mentioned, a great live mic. No, they don't have the sparkle of a nice condenser, but you'll never regret having 1 or 2 of these around, even if you end up getting a nice condenser or two down the line. In my experience, an SM57 (or 58 for that matter) never gathers too much dust. They are even in the studios that also use the multi-thousand dollar Neumann tube mics. Always an application for a 57 somewhere.

It is my understanding that the Sm57 and the SM58 spec out the same. The 58 has the addition of the wind screen which makes it a common choice as a vocal mic for the stage.

Monitors are something I'm not too familiar with. I send the output of my Yamaha AW4416 to a stereo amp and use stereo speakers for my "studio." Not a professional quality approach, but then again, I'm no professional quality musician. It's a setup that works for me while I save money for a nice amp and real studio monitors. I did borrow my friends Alesis amp and monitors for awhile. Alesis Monitor Ones. Sounded great to me, but lacked shimmer in the high end. They got plenty loud, though. They come in around $250/pair. I don't know how much the amp was.

Look at your budget. For my purposes, the AW4416, a couple 57s, stereo amp and speakers is all I need to record my songs. As I get better at using the recorder, learn proper mic placement, and get better as a musician, I can save some dough and investigate upgrading later. Nothing will go to waste.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 20 Dec 2001 11:04 am

Your speakers are your measuring stick for every decision you make in the recording process.The problem with using home stereo speakers for recording and mixing is that they are often "hyped" in various frequencies so as to make popular music sound good to teenagers.What you're gonna want in a studio monitor is complete and utter(and sometimes)brutal sonic honesty - in short,a super flat frequency response.Otherwise,you can make some terrible boxey,shrill or muddy mixes and not realize it until you hear them on another rig.Since your speakers are the only piece of gear that actually makes any physical sound - the only thing you actually HEAR,it bears at least as much consideration as microphone selection.You want speakers designed for studio monitoring.If I were you,I would look at some self-powered studio monitors like Alesis,Yamaha,Event,KRK,Tannoy,JBL,Roland,Fostex or Mackie.The fact is,if you do it right you're gonna spend between $400 and $1200 on monitoring.If you skimp at this stage,it's like driving your new Lexus around on 4 mismatched bald tires.No.....your speakers got to be kickin! This home recording thing is not as cheap as you thought - is it....?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » 20 Dec 2001 11:43 am

You guys are great. Thanks for the advice.
I did let my local ProSound recording guru talk me into trying an A R T Acoustic Pac. Contains an Apex 190 mic (condenser) and an ART Tube Amp. I am about to try some tracks with it today.
Still looking for as much advice as possible. I will be getting other mics, even if this one is ok.
Great advice on using home stereo system vice studio monitors. My stereo is high end and can be tweeked for flatness or not. What I have not done done is a "white noise" room balance. I agree with Michael's comments re monitors. I am going to keep that option open. Not too concerned with using Roland's 'cause I'm not sure that the speaker modeling is all that it is cracked up to be. I could be wrong.
Budget is not a major driver, but since this is my first try at home recording I don't want to spend for more than I need. Taking it slowly for now.
Keep the thoughts coming....Thanks

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Allen Harry
Mullen D-10, 8 & 6
Nashville 1000

[This message was edited by Allen on 20 December 2001 at 11:44 AM.]

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 27 Dec 2001 2:38 pm

You can only use those effects modules with the Roland Microphone

That's incorrect. You can plug a 58 or 57 directly into the Roland (I like to use the cheap ART tube pre-amp to boost and control the gain) and run it through the Neumann or AKG mic modeler with astounding results. Acoustic guitars and vocals are magic, just unbelievable that it's a 58.

Now for your steel, I would suggest mic'ing the amp with a 57 (find the sweet spot a few inches from the speaker) and not using the mic modeler. The 57 will do a great job of capturing the tone you're hearing from your amp. You can run effects while tracking if you choose, just don't print them to disk. Add them later when you can experiment and find the right effects for each instrument's place in the mix. With the 890 you should 'comp' groups of instruments with effects to two stereo virtual tracks. With my 880, I always ended up with four stereo pairs to mix. And because you have the virtual tracks, you're not married to any of your comps and can go back and re-do them as needed, or do several different ones with varied effects and levels and store groups as a 'scene' for later comparison. The Rolands are awesome machines.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 27 Dec 2001 4:30 pm

With regard to studio monitor/mixing speakers, I agree completely (again) with Michael Johnstone. I've made that very mistake.
It's hard to describe the awful feeling you get when you hear something you've worked so hard on through another system, and it sounds like crap. oh man...
-John

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 28 Dec 2001 8:05 am

The Apex mic line are very good at their price point. I paid $175. Canadian for their standard large diaphragm condensor and it's been a mainstay with my VS1680. Have recorded vocals, acoustic, drums, dobro, fiddle, mandolin, gosh almost everything with it. They also have a multi-pattern tube mic for $399 Canadian. They are obtained thru Yorkville sound.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 28 Dec 2001 11:16 am

I bothered every studio guy at every studio I was in for a year or so with the question:
"If you could only buy one (not stupid money) mic for your studio which one would it be ?"

After much hemming and hawing and gnashing of teeth the answer was ALWAYS an AKG 414.

I check out all sorts of mic's these days often 57's off axis sound better than the Neumans. I prefer a 414 or a 421 up close and a Coles back about 5 feet for most sessions. For my own project I am hiring a guy that puts a dozen Geffels all over this big church into a Sonic Solutions system. Real big, in your face sound.

On a practical level once you get going spend lots and lots of time experimenting with mic placement before you start turning knobs.

Bob [This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 28 December 2001 at 11:17 AM.]

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 28 Dec 2001 11:51 am

I have gotten a good formula for miking any guitar amp. It works great for my steels. I use an SM 57 up close, but just off center. The location of this mike is critical, so once you get your sweet spot REMEMBER IT! THe second mike is use is any great condenser or ribbon mike. Put that one in pretty close too, 2" to 6" off. Try combinations of the SM57 with other mikes or with direct recording. Direct was common early on, but that was back when console gear had tubes and all recoding was on tape. Buck

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 28 Dec 2001 5:24 pm

"If you could only buy one (not stupid money) mic for your studio which one would it be ?" After much hemming and hawing and gnashing of teeth the answer was ALWAYS an AKG 414.

I second the motion. I fell in love with the AKG 414 a long time ago. Still my all time favorite, and I've worked with a pretty reasonable assortment of studio mics. But the durned thing costs about $700 new, so it's not too practical for a modest home recording setup. I'm thinking of picking up 1 or 2 of the AKG C3000B mics (plus a preamp) for my own home recording rig.

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Bill (steel not out of the woodshed) | MSA Classic U12 | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?
"There are SO many things about you which are SO middle aged." -my wife[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 28 December 2001 at 05:26 PM.]

Allen · Post by **Allen** » 28 Dec 2001 8:15 pm

Again, thank you all for great advice.
Michael, I am holding off on the CD burner. Will try to use the one in my computer.
I may go ahead and invest in a SM57 and/or 58. Seems like a worthwile investment.
As far as monitors, I am looking at this closely. Just can't stand the thought of $400+ ea. for a pair of Rolands.
I will also keep my eye open for a good deal on the AKG414. For those that mentioned the AKG C3000B, let me (us on the forum) know what you think of them.
So far my learning curve with the 890 is steep, but getting some fair results on my trial efforts. A great machine, just a poor ops manual.
Thanks, Allen

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Allen Harry
Mullen D-10, 8 & 6
Nashville 1000

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 6 Jan 2002 3:54 am

I like the Royer 121 ribbon mike for pedal steel or guitar miking. No, I *love* it. It is also killer for miking strings, because it has a very sweet high end which doesn't emphasize bow noise. Some people would prefer an SM57 for steel, because they like the boosted upper midrange in this mike, but I like a smoother tone.

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 7 Jan 2002 1:31 pm

Musicians (girl)Freind is currently liquidating their stock of CAD M37 LD condensors. This is a great all purpose condensor that they are selling for $100. I think they used to retail for $299. Either way, get a cheap SM57 or 58 and use the large diaphram for a room mic.

Good luck!