MIDI Steel 2001: Pickup Project

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 13 Mar 2001 11:41 am

Mike Brewer has posted in another old and long thread on MIDI Steel about his recent endeavours to produce PU's for Steel to use with Roland and Axxon MIDI interfaces, as well as possibly retroreplacements for dead IVL Steelrider PU's.

I am starting this thread so we won't have to read thru a year's worth of non pertinent info to get to the good new stuff

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As I promised, this is my first progress report on midi pickups. I now have drawings completed and out for bids from various electronic manufacturers. The pickup will be approx. 9mm wide and 7mm thick. This should fit on most guitars. If the guitar pickup is too close, an inverted mounting bracket can be used. String spacing will be 8mm which I think is pretty standard on most guitars.

For those who have Steel Riders, I have had my pickup x-rayed and I plan to try and duplicate it. This will have to wait until I get the others into production.

After looking at the x-rays, I have the feeling that most of your problems are with the pre-amps at the pickup. I haven't researched them yet but more than likely the existing pre-amps can still be purchased off the shelf. They don't look too difficult to replace.

That's all for this report. I'll try to do this again next week.

Mike Brewer

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After studying an x-ray of my IVL pickup, I think I disagree with Chuck. In my pickup the coil wires are soldered to a printed circuit board. It looks like the wire through the cable is AWG 28 which should take some punishment before breaking. I believe most of the problems are in the preamps in the little black boxes at the pickup. I have suggested to many that they check the IC numbers on the preamps and try finding a replacement at their electronics supplier. Although the wires are fine (.002} coming off the bobbins, they are encapsulated with some pretty stiff stuff. At least my pickup is very firm and difficult to deflect.

As soon as I receive the magnets I have ordered, I am going to try to reproduce my 12 string IVL pickup. This requires me to create a drawing of the PC board and have some made. After that, all I need to do is wind some bobbins and wire them to the board. I am probably looking at about $750 to get 20 boards. The magnets are going to cost me about $.50 each with a $250 tooling setup fee.

Sometime in the future I may be able to supply replacement pickups for the IVL units.

Mike Brewer

posted 13 March 2001 08:58 AM
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In order to duplicate the IVL pickup, I must create a drawing of the PC board. It would help if I had a dead pickup, ten or twelve. The preamps are not needed as yet. Anyway I have mine to look at. If anyone knows of or wants to sell a dead one, please contact me off line.

Thanks,

Mike Brewer
228-255-7675

Thanks,

Mike Brewer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Michael Brewer · Post by **Michael Brewer** » 14 Mar 2001 4:45 pm

Many thanks to Dave Van Allen for starting this new thread. I tried to pass on to him some of my ideas about resurrecting his Steel Rider pickup. I hope they were helpful.

This program is still on track and so far looks good. I have had so many responses to my efforts in producing new pickups that I have trouble sleeping thinking about ways to speed up the process.

As soon as I receive responses to my requests for quotes on the boards I will be placing orders for 100 units. That will keep me busy for a while.

It feels really great to get the kind of responses I have received here on the Forum. Stay tuned, help is on the way.

Mike Brewer

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Mike Brewer

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 17 Mar 2001 10:41 am

MIke- I opened the preamp boxes on my IVL PU and could find nothing obviously broken or disconnected, no loose solder joints etc...
Haven't got it mounted on my axe yet to test it.
I am gonna open up the brainbox and look for that on board battery we discussed too.

It's time for a spring cleaning!

Bruce Meyer · Post by **Bruce Meyer** » 18 Mar 2001 9:23 am

Mike and Dave

I'm hoping I can help the effort to save the endagered species - the IVL Steelrider. First a comment then I'll get to the point.

A few years back I was trying to get someone or some company interested in building a new steel midi unit. IVL sent schematics of both the electronics and the pickup for the Steelrider. I had a couple of folks take a look at them in hopes of building a unit. They told me that the schematics were pretty complete, except for a "chip" that was the units brain. IVL said they would sell the schematics for that for $25,000. At that point I gave up.

Finally -- here's the point. Maybe you have the schematics already, but if you don't, would you want copies? If so, email me.

I would like to help anyway I can in developing a new unit. Thanks.

Michael Brewer · Post by **Michael Brewer** » 18 Mar 2001 5:38 pm

Bruce,

I tried to send you an email at bsteelman@ibm.net but it was returned. Is this a good email address for you?
Mike

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Mike Brewer

Michael Brewer · Post by **Michael Brewer** » 21 Mar 2001 2:49 pm

I haven't posted an update for a while so here it is. I have boiled down the configuration to two choices. I believe the finished pickup will look very much like the IVL. I have constructed a single string test unit which I will power up tomorrow. If this performs like I think it will, the IVL look like will be it. I have quotes from vendors for magnets and PC boards. All I have to do is place the orders. There is about a 3-4 week time delay before I get the first shipments. The coil order will be placed last. I must have the test results above first.

There may be two different wiring configurations. One for IVL replacements and one for the new preamps. However, I am considering producing and adapter unit which will match the new units with existing Steel Riders. The new units will come first and theIVL replacements will have to follow. I am still holding to my goal of having a demo booth at the St. Louis show.

I now have my fax system back on line. The number is 228-586-0996 if anyone wants to contact me that way.

More next week.

Mike

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Mike Brewer

Michael Brewer · Post by **Michael Brewer** » 22 Mar 2001 3:56 pm

I know that I just posted a progress report yesterday. But, testing of my new magnet/coil configuration was so satisfactory that couldn't keep it to myself. I have decided to build the pickup in the IVL style and it will look very much like it. Just about the same size. I now have a vendor for the magnets and PC board. I will place an order for those next week and hopefully for the coils also. If worse comes to worse, I can make the coils for the first few units myself. It takes about 5 minutes on the lathe for each coil spool and about 10 minutes to wind it. This means about 3 hours for a 12 stringer so I would much rather buy them.

It is difficult to realize just how much interest this project has generated. I am saving copies of all my email and will let everyone know personally when I have units for sale.

Mike Brewer

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Mike Brewer

Moon in Alaska · Post by **Moon in Alaska** » 22 Mar 2001 4:29 pm

Dave, I have a stupid question --- With a midi pickup on standard guitar, we had to fret the strings very carefully, if we put any bend in any string we got nothing.. So the question, can a slide be sucessfully be reproduced ???

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Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 22 Mar 2001 5:58 pm

The slide can be faithfully be reproduced- it just has to be set at the synth module for that. Michael- are you planning to make the pickup avilable to fit the Axon unit? I have an IVL unit but feel that the Axon unit is superior~~ Jim Palenscar

Michael Brewer · Post by **Michael Brewer** » 22 Mar 2001 6:16 pm

Jim,

Axon, Yamaha and Roland all use the same system. As a matter of fact all their pickup units are interchangeable. Roland has set the industry standard with their 13 pin system. The answer is yes.

I am working with Axon to obtain a distributorship. If I am successful at this, I will make their units available to all members at a decent discount. I don't you know how much I will have to pay for their units.

Mike

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Mike Brewer

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 23 Mar 2001 7:17 pm

Moon
Depending on the capabilities of the synth you are controlling pitch bends can be very accurately tracked even on the old IVL... if you set up your MIDI channelization right you can get bends in opposite directions on different strings (notes)at the same time, just like on a steel guitar

Accuracy and consistency of pick attack are paramount, and if one tunes the steel "straight up" on a tuner it helps too...

with my Kawai synths I had to set the pitch bend sensitivity to 12 half steps (octave) otherwise it would bend to a note between the notes somewhere ( in other words a whole step string bend or slide would go a halfstep + a few cent over not making it to the full whole step) other manufacturer's units settings might differ.

MUSICO · Post by **MUSICO** » 25 Mar 2001 3:38 am

Im more interested in the VG 88 by Yamaha

Any experiments with that sound sculpting unit that uses a hexaphonic pickup???

Also, are we talking a bout one 12 string pickup and two synth/VG88 units??

Jeremy Williams
Gandia Valencia
Spain

chuck abend · Post by **chuck abend** » 25 Mar 2001 8:23 pm

I have built 3 12 stg pitchrider pickups and
they all worked perfectly.Al Petty has one of
them,with wires and no amps.He ued the photon
pickup instead.If you guys know how to get
hold of him,I'd like to have it back.
I took a 10 stg IVL pickup apart and the pc
board mini circuits are a potential problem.
My pickup bobbins are pressed in 062 brass
1/2 in wide with 7/32 brass angle soldered
on each side and 1st stg end and at ib end
it is bent up 90 deg with oval hole for the
two harnesses to exit.The top of the bobbins
are even with the 90 deg side angles.The mini
pc boards are between the magnets and coils.
The wires lay in a trough on each side and
the coil wires solder to ib pc holes and the
harness to the outer holes.med heat shrink covers the pickup and harness exit.I mount
the unit with a light filler soft wood block
under pickup with double tape.I mount the unit permanently with amps on brackets.
I never have a problem or glitch.The magnets
are protected inside the side angles.I have
one 12 stg brass frame completed.I'll try to
post a picture ,if possible.Chuck Abend
countrysteel@hotmail.com

Dennis Boyd · Post by **Dennis Boyd** » 26 Mar 2001 12:19 am

Can someone build a custom midi pickup for a 14-stringed instrument? Let me know what you think.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 26 Mar 2001 6:19 am

I'm sure a 14 string pickup could be built, but since all the interface units are based on six string guitar, you'd need three units which would be extremely expensive.

I'm pondering having Jerry Fessenden build me a 13 string guitar and using my 12 string MIDI pickup only on the top 12 strings. Perhaps you could do the same on your 14 string. I've heard reports that the MIDI interface can barely handle the low C on C6 or low B on a U-12.

Since MIDI inherently triggers better on higher pitches, at least one IVL user says that he programs a patch or two to play one octave lower to get the low notes without playing the lower strings.

------------------
Jim Smith jimsmith94@home.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-12 (soon to be U-13) 8&5 (so far)=-

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 26 Mar 2001 7:32 am

Tracking the low notes is indeed problematic.

You might well want to only use a 10 str PU for a 12 string unit or a 12 str PU on a 14. (the IVL is capable of a max of 12 strings- other guitar oriented units you'd need two of to get 12 strings output... as Jim Smith says it would get expensive...)

But back to tracking...
As I wrote in an article about the IVL Steelrider on my website:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Pitch-to-MIDI devices are subject to some basic laws of physics that make them less than perfect if one's desire is to accurately transmute an intricate instrumental performance into MIDI data: It takes approximately 1.5 cycles of a played note for the device to accurately determine the pitch of the note. This creates a noticeable delay between the plucking of a string and the sounding of a note from the synthesizer. This delay decreases as the pitch of the note played rises (more cycles per second for a higher pitch = faster response); If the note is not in tune it may trigger the next note up or down from the note intended, or not trigger a note at all if a second note comes too quickly.

These qualities of "tracking" are the bane of companies trying to create alternative MIDI controllers, particularly guitar controllers. From years of hearing the note IMMEDIATELY upon playing it, and expecting that IMMEDIATE auditory feedback to the brain, many guitarists seem to be thrown for a loop when trying to play riffs they are used to through a MIDI device, and many abandon the attempt.

My feeling is, yes there is a delay, but that the advantages outweigh the problems. It is almost like learning another instrument, and with patience and ingenuity one can manipulate the device to one's will. There will be things that the device is just not capable of- accurately tracking a 196 MPH speed picking riff for instance; but having the ability to play almost any sound imaginable will allow one to explore different approaches to creating MUSIC, not just riffs, and open new realms of expression. I find the delay can be musically useful- when playing with an organ patch it can give the classic "B3 player on nembutal" feel when playing with an in-the-pocket R and B groove. One can also play slightly ahead of the beat (a technique many steelers use for volume pedal swells) in order to compensate for the miniscule delay.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

an interesting experiment in improving tracking:

Tommy Hannum told me at one point he had strung up an extra steel at home with all the same gauge (.011 or .014 something thin and high) to the same pitch, and transposed within the IVL and/or the synth to improve the tracking... but that was an extreme experiment; you'd have to ask him how well it worked.You'd also have to dedicate an axe (or a neck of s mulitineck) to JUST MIDI driving... impractical for gigging...

Steel tryin · Post by **Steel tryin** » 26 Mar 2001 7:57 am

I would email Keith Hilton and get his 2 cents.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 26 Mar 2001 8:09 am

It takes approximately 1.5 cycles of a played note for the device to accurately determine the pitch of the note. This creates a noticeable delay between the plucking of a string and the sounding of a note from the synthesizer.

I've heard that the modern units made for guitar can find the pitch in half a cycle. Maybe quantizing to the nearest ET pitch helps them find it quicker.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 26 Mar 2001 8:17 am

Like I said b0b, I was talking about the IVL- 1988 technology... "modern units" may well deal with it more gracefully...

Russ Wever · Post by **Russ Wever** » 26 Mar 2001 4:34 pm

It's been a while back, but I thought it was Ed 'PeeWee' Charles, that explained to me that the first 'generation' of 'pitch-to-midi' readers required a full (360 degrees) wave-form to react, the next generation required a half-wave (180 degrees) and as soon as the wave delved into the 'minus' territory, the reader would symmetrically 'mirror' the image of the first 180 degrees.
At that time the next step was to design them so that as soon as the wave began its fall after the quarter-wave (90 degree) point, it would 'mirror' that first quarter-wave to create a half-wave, then would in turn mirror the resultant half-wave into a full-wave.
Chuck, perhaps you can track down Al Petty thru Charlie Norris of the TSGA - Phone 972 285 1251

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 26 Mar 2001 5:06 pm

The number I have for Al is 903-834-3986.

Michael Brewer · Post by **Michael Brewer** » 26 Mar 2001 6:22 pm

I haven't posted anything for a while so here is my input. Building a professional looking and satisfactorily operating pickup is not an impossible task. Just be prepared to spend some money and that is what I am doing. Every one of these components, PC boards, magnets, coils, cables and preamps are custom built items. You must be prepared to pay tooling costs up front. For example: 500 feet of 6 conductor shielded cable costs $1.50 per foot even though you only use about four feet per unit. You have to get the cable diameter down to no more than 1/8 inch in order to get a satisfactory bend radius.

I will have pickups ready for view at the St. Louis show. They will look very much like the IVL pickup except the preamps will be different.

I am negotiating with Axon for a distributorship. If I am successful, I will be able to provide these at a decent discount to anyone who wants the best.

As for the low notes, I tried my prototype unit on my Bflat 6th tuning and it handles the low B flat with ease through a Roland GI-10. I also talked to the Axon people about this and they don't feel there is any problem since their unit can also be used and is used on Bass.

I built a 10 string prototype today and as soon as my cable arrives, I will have it operating.

I'm very happy to see so much interest in this thread. I'll try my best to keep the ball rolling.

Mike

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Mike Brewer

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 27 Mar 2001 7:54 am

Thank you Mike!!
Waiting with great anticipation...

Michael Brewer · Post by **Michael Brewer** » 28 Mar 2001 5:42 pm

This is for Chuck Abend. Chuck, I have sent you several messages to your e-mail address. They don't show up as returned mail so I haven't any idea why they are not reaching you.

Today I issued purchase orders for the PC boards, cable and coil/magnet assemblies. The vendors have committed to 3 week lead times. If they meet their schedule, I will be assembling pickups on May 1. I haven't yet tested my 10 IVL configuration unit. I need the six conductor cable. I could use some larger stuff but I don't want to have to remove it when the new stuff gets here.
It appears that I am on schedule to make the St. Louis show. I talked to Scotty and he is sending me the info I need to get some space there.

More Later.

Mike

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Mike Brewer

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 28 Mar 2001 8:14 pm

Mike, I don't think Chuck checks his email very often. Sometimes it's a week or so between replies to me.