Question about batteries

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 29 Mar 2001 8:32 am

Somebody told me that many stomp boxes sound better if the batteries are not at full strength. I've even heard that somebody is making a device to simulate a weakend battery for use in these boxes, and that one company (Danelectro) is making batteries specifically for them, that don't retain their charge as long, and using the fact that they lose power faster as a selling point.

Has anybody else heard this or know anything about it? It sounds crazy to me.

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God made only a few perfect heads. He put hair on the rest to cover his mistakes.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 29 Mar 2001 8:38 am

Maybe...for a fuzztone, or distortion device, since this might give a "softer" waveform. But all other devices I have used work BETTER with new batteries. All in all, it sounds like a dumb idea...I mean, if your 9V device works better with 6V than with 9v, then use 4 AAA cells in it instead of a 9V battery...right?

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 29 Mar 2001 8:57 am

Mike, think of this. If someone is making a battery that doesn't last as long, and you have to buy more of them - who would really want them??

"Oh sure, give those short lasting batteries, I like to throw my money away".

As Donny mentioned, if you want a lower voltage - make a battery pack with lower voltage batteries and connect it to the device.

People come up with "untechnical" harebrained ideas all the time. Not that I'm against inventiveness, just logically things such as this not too bright.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 29 Mar 2001 9:48 am

This may not be related to just a lower operating voltage. It may be a nearly discharged battery is exhibiting a parameter
related to it's internal resistance. Probably the best correlation would be power
transformer saturation in a tube amp where
the power supply is sagging due to excessive
current demands across the transformer core.
It adds to the "tube" sound and is generally
a desirable sound here as well. Regards, Paul

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 29 Mar 2001 9:58 am

I've heard, and experienced, that Boss Tones sound better with old batteries.

David Pennybaker · Post by **David Pennybaker** » 29 Mar 2001 10:17 am

Don't know if this applies directly to alkalines or not, but it does to rechargeable NiCads.

These batteries start at a higher voltage than nominal.

For a nominal 1.2 V cell, the voltage curve starts at about 1.4 V, then rather quickly declines to down around 1.25 or so. When they finally get down to about 1.05 - 1.10 V, they need to be recharged.

At any rate, if this is the problem, you could build some sort of voltage regulator device to keep the voltage at or below 9.0 volts. (or whatever voltage, say 8.8 V works well).

That's what's done in R/C models sometimes, when people want to run the receivers with a nominal 6.0 V pack (instead of the standard 4.8 V pack). Some receivers just can't handle or than 6.0 V, so there has to be some sort of voltage regulator used.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 29 Mar 2001 11:52 am

Jack, you can simulate a weak battery very, very easily. Simply run the battery through a voltage divider--a POT. In that way you can get any reduced voltage you want out of a new battery. For example: Suppose you had a 9 volt battery. You could hook it to a POT and divide the voltage and get anything from zero voltage to 9 volts. If you are using 2-- 9 volt batteries, hook them in series to get 18 volts. You can reduce the 18 volts in a range from zero to 18 with a POT. It is simple to hook up. Run hot or plus wire to one of the outside pot terminals. The line out, with reduced voltage, would be the center pot terminal. The ground, or negative, would be the remaining terminal on the pot. If you don't like the way the pot shaft turns, just reverse the two outside wires. Just make sure the pot is rated at the voltage-watts for the amount of maximum voltage. You would probably need a resistor on the plus line coming off the batteries, or there could be a melt down. The size of the resistor would be determined by the amount of current you needed. [This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 29 March 2001 at 11:54 AM.]

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 29 Mar 2001 12:50 pm

All of this 1/2 used battery debate is quite simple....

Have your friends,family,co-workers etc,etc give you all the 9-volt batteries they think is bad. I have found that most are really still quite good for use in the stomp-boxes. Works very well in the "Boss-Tone" units. I've even received a few rechargeable batterys too.

I haven't purchased batterys in years !!!

Why build a device to drain away a portion of the battery you paid high price for ? Most of these devices only dispence a portion of the voltage off as heat( useing a resistor) You cain't regain this spent power later.

Just my .02cents (for what it's worth.)

Ric Epperle · Post by **Ric Epperle** » 29 Mar 2001 1:23 pm

Keith.. You hit the nail on the head..

[This message was edited by Ric Epperle on 29 March 2001 at 01:25 PM.]

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 29 Mar 2001 6:01 pm

Mike wanted to know how to find the "sweet spot"--in terms of lower voltage, for running a particular device. With a POT hooked up like I described, you can get any voltage less than the max. So if a person "thinks" they hear something good, as battries go dead, they can find that lower voltage with the hookup I described. Once they found that exact voltage that made everything sound sweet, they could build a power supply that would have that exact voltage. In that way the batteries would only be used as a test device Bill. I also dislike using battries.

justin25taylor · Post by **justin25taylor** » 29 Mar 2001 6:33 pm

I have used the "low voltage batteries in my acoustic guitar for some time they seem to give a "fuller" sound and last just as long.
my $.02
Justin

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 30 Mar 2001 4:23 am

You would probably need a resistor on the plus line coming off the batteries, or there could be a melt down. The size of the resistor would be determined by the amount of current you needed.

I guess I'm still kinda at lost here,,, Why waste off a portion of a good battery as heat ?? The dag-burn things are far too expensive for this.

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 30 Mar 2001 9:18 am

Here's a link to the V-Bat, a device that apparently emulates voltate "sag" in batteries.

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Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website
shobud.cjb.net

[This message was edited by Greg Simmons on 30 March 2001 at 09:21 AM.][This message was edited by Greg Simmons on 30 March 2001 at 09:22 AM.]

David Pennybaker · Post by **David Pennybaker** » 30 Mar 2001 10:18 am

What a cool link!

I guess there must be lots of guitarists who really can tell a difference in used vs. new batteries in their stomp boxes.

Either that, or some very clever marketing.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 30 Mar 2001 10:21 am

We are not really talking about batteries, but about voltage level. The question then becomes; Will a device have a slightly different tone and sound when the power level is changed? The answer, in my opinion, is yes. Some cases are more drastic than others. Electronic designers call this the "Q" of the circuit. For example, I use a chip that will operate between 4.5 volts and 24 volts. The manufacturer of the chip recommends 15 volts for best operation. I happen to use 12 volts with this circuit because it sounds better to me run at 12 volts instead of 15 volts. Other factors concerning circuit tone quality come into play, because there are many things involved besides just one chip in a circuit. It is therefore up to the designer of the circuit to pick a power level he feels sounds best. Many of these circuits in music effects were designed for 6 string standard guitar, not for steel guitar, and there is a difference--by the way.

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 31 Mar 2001 6:42 pm

Yes, David ....

The difference is very noticeable in battery voltage levels in some stomp -boxes. The DD-3 I use is one. (Boy, is this thing a battery hog,I dont recomend anyone useing it without a external power supply) After about 2 hours use I loose the clean tone and it begins to clip a bit. I think this is partly due to the fact that the battery has been on the shelf in the store a while. Shelf life of batterys isn't nearly as good as the box suggest.

Keith.... I must agree with you in general about the voltage level bit. There dose seem to be a sweet spot that many devices seem to work best at. (We know as the voltage decreases in a battery, the current capabilities decrease too,which seems to have a somewhat compressiom results) However, to arrive at this point, I don't think we should have to bleed off power as heat to ataine the "Sweet Spot" of voltage. This is why I sometimes use a 6 volt wall-wart for a 9 volt device. I have found that my Profex II even sounds better (to me) at 12 volt ac input as to the 16 volt ac txmer. I find that internal voltages, at certain points, may be as high as 22 volts. Looking at the 3 or 4 voltage regulators built onto the circuit board, I find I'm passing a lot of voltage off as heat. After test using different ac power xmers,the unit really does perform better, run cooler, and dosen't create as big a hum problem. (This may be due to the txmer I'm useing may be better sheilded that OEM unit supplied)

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 31 Mar 2001 7:15 pm

Along this same type of thought, I wonder if many of you use a VARIAC or variable power supply between the wall and the amp? I know that tone can vary a lot from place to place, like in a bar with a lot of power being used.

I read an interview with David Lindley years ago, and he swore by his VARIAC. I think he just used it to keep the power at the standard level, but maybe he played around with it, too. I know that Eddie VanHalen used to use a VARIAC with his Fender Bandmaster for practice, and since he liked the tone with a little too much voltage, he went through output transformers pretty regularly. I have a variable power supply, but I haven't got around to using it in a playing situation yet, so I don't know how it would work.

I think I have an amp repair manual where the author strongly advises against using a VARIAC. [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 31 March 2001 at 07:18 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 1 Apr 2001 6:37 am

Well, let's see...

First, you buy an amp that sounds nice and clean.

Then you buy a fuzz, or overdrive box to make it sound "distorted".

Now, you want a box to make it sound "not quite as distorted".

Hmmmmmmm...You know, I'm really starting to worry about some of you guys!

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 4 Apr 2001 12:41 am

Aw... Donny

We have to play with our toys ever now and then.