Poco- Eagles "farm club"??

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 4 Jan 2001 11:01 am

glen suchan wrote in another thread in response to my assertion that Poco was like a "farm team" for bass players:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Dave, You said: "Poco was like the Eagles farm team". At the risk of gettin' flamed, I say this: Although the
Eagles were a hugely popular band, I like to think that Meissner and Schmidt left to join Poco's farm team. Poco had "mined" a sound that was largely duplicated several years later by the Eagles. Especially the latin influences.
Poco's problem with popularity was that their sound was too traditionally country for pop and too rock-sounding for country. And I think that translating their sound into hard financial return proved to be too difficult of a problem for Epic's marketing people to solve. Clearly, the talent and inovation was there for Poco to be as fabulously successful a band as the Eagles were (are?). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sure what you mean by " I like to think that Meissner and Schmidt left to join Poco's farm team." the chronology of participation in both bands was such that each player was in Poco first then moved into the Eagles...that's the basis for my "farm team" remark

I have no issue with the evaluation of Poco's commerciality issues... they were an immensely talented group- as witnessed by the successes of some members who moved on... Messina with Loggins, the bass crew at different times with the Eagles, the short lived Souther Hillman Furay band...

perhaps you fear someone might come to the defense of the Eagles as country rock innovators?

I think not... they assimilated and popularized , but did not particularly innovate until "Hotel California" IMO.

just my 2 cents, and I think we are in agreement on the subject for the most part

------------------
"I AM ZUMBODY!"

Zumsteel U12 "Loafer" 8&6 :: Fender T-8 Stringmaster :: Fender Tube Amplification
www.voicenet.com/~vanallen/ :: vanallen@voicenet.com

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 4 Jan 2001 12:29 pm

Hi Dave!

Please forgive my remarks if I misunderstood your point. My response was not directed at you personally, but to the forum as a whole. Your comparison of the "farm team" just caught my attention because of its accuracy and irony.

I was "spouting-off" because I have always felt that Poco has never gotten the level of recognition that the Eagles have. Inspite of the fact that they predated the Eagles and innovated alot of the style that the Eagles are known for. My remark about being "flamed" was directed more toward Eagles devotees.

I think your point is well taken and very astute. I was just compounding it with my two-cents.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 4 Jan 2001 4:21 pm

I persoanlly kid of think 'Hotel California' as the end of the group, where their second rate songs saw them soaring high in the charts and a major stadium act.
With hindsight the album of the same title only seems to have a couple of good songs, while the rest are mediocre at best.
But then, I am not a fan of Joe Walsh and have always thought that the group suffered heavily after Leadon left their ranks.
Even moreso after Meisner had gone.
Without them there was no-one to hold the others melodramatic rock tendencies in check.
I really like the first couple of albums, and yeah sure it was a total hybrid of Poco, The Stone Canyon Band, The Flying Burrito Bros, etc.. that was their heritage anyway.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 4 Jan 2001 5:11 pm

Speaking of "farm teams", Buffalo Springfield! Richie Furay, Jim Messina, Steve Stills, Neil Young,... what the heck more do you want??

------------------
www.jimcohen.com

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 4 Jan 2001 5:21 pm

I once found a website--forget where--that had a 'family tree' chart of the Byrds/Buffalo Springfield et al.
Burritos, Poco, Eagles, Desert Rose, Parsons, CSNY, and on and on...the mind boggled.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 4 Jan 2001 7:37 pm

yup. the fantastic Buffalo Springfield- the spring from which so much music came...and with whom Rusty Young first recorded the incredible "Kind Woman"

what the heck more do you want??

a frickin' time machine!! I wanna go back and watch those guys play....

Ken Tinsman · Post by **Ken Tinsman** » 5 Jan 2001 2:00 am

Jon, the "Family Tree" is at
www.csny2k.com

Intresting stuff, especially for those of us who thought we knew our Country-Rock history!

Steven Stills used to play with Don Felder in 1960! Neil Young used to play with guys from Steppenwolf! Whodathunkit?

BTW, I remember when Leadon left the Eagles he was quoted as saying he "left to pursue a career in music," so I guess we know where he stood on their new direction.

As for me, I love 'em all. The Eagles were great at the begining and great at the end. Meissner and Schmitt were great with Poco and great with the Eagles. Poco was and always will be great as long as Rusty Young shows up. But if Dave finds that time machine, I do want to come along for the ride.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 5 Jan 2001 7:28 am

I was a HUGE Poco-nut in the 70's. I think they were great as long as MESSINA was with them, and as soon as Paul Cotton replaced him, they went straight down the toilet (with the SOLE exception of "Bad Weather"). Just one man's opinion .

Brendan Mitchell · Post by **Brendan Mitchell** » 5 Jan 2001 11:15 pm

I think it was Chris Hillman said
The Birds invented Country Rock
Poco refined it
and The Eagles took it to the bank
Brendan

Rich Paton · Post by **Rich Paton** » 5 Jan 2001 11:44 pm

Since the "Last Time Around" album by the Springfield pretty much consisted of songs written, produced, and played by Young, Stills, and Messina with help from drummer Dewey Martin, the tunes were more solo efforts by the members than any sort of a Buffalo Springfield product.
"Kind Woman" was therefore actually the first Poco song, with Messina, Furay, and Rusty Young being the principals. Whether it was Dewey Martin, George Grantham, or another drummer on that tune I don't know.
I've always been a big fan of Poco, and was able to go to concerts by them from 1973 through the eighties. They were great live, especially with Al Garth on fiddle & sax.
There may be quite a few of songs on Poco albums that weren't so hot, but I think this was far outweighed by the great ones.
Comparing Poco & the Eagles is like comparing oranges & nectarines...I don't think they really intended to play similar styles of country-rock. But most of my favorite Poco & Eagles tunes (with lyrics) were written & sung by Tim Schmidt, and also the great Poco instrumentals and tunes with long, spirited instrumental breaks.
I agree that I would have preferred a more "country" sounding lead guitarist than Cotton, but it was Messina himself who had recommended him as a replacement, and he did play some great parts, especially blusey stuff like "Flying Solo" and "Cajun Moon".

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 6 Jan 2001 5:40 am

Rich, the thing is I find the earliest efforts by Poco, the Eagles, FBBs, etc to be their best.

That Family Tree is pretty cool, I really love Pete Frame's work, although he did omit Sir Raleigh & The Coupons from 1964-1965 with Dewey Martin and Sneaky Pete Kleinow.
They actually recorded as well as played in L.A and Seattle.

Brendan Mitchell · Post by **Brendan Mitchell** » 6 Jan 2001 5:30 pm

Where in this chronology would The Lovin Spoonful fit? especially the song Nashville Cats? Brendan

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 6 Jan 2001 6:13 pm

I couldn't find the Jon Wayne band on that family tree.

JB Arnold · Post by **JB Arnold** » 6 Jan 2001 8:00 pm

The spoonful wouldn't fit. They were from the East Coast, and sprung from the same well that gave us Maria Muldaur and Dan Hicks-a folky, jug band scene-Mama Cass hung with that crowd,as did a lot of the Mamas and Papas before they went west. Muldaur and Sebastian both played in Jim Kweskins Jug band in the Greenwich Village area, and have more in common with Dylan and Joan Baez than Roger McGuinn or Chris Hillman. Sebastian was always more of a Nashville style writer than the west coast types, although later in his career he changed over a lot. But early on, they were all from different camps. Nashville Cats was written in '65 or '66, maybe earlier, and is a paen to Sebastian's roots.

Not long after it came out, the INS found out that Zal Yanofsky (lead guitar) was in the country on an expired work permit. They raided his house one night and threatened him with immediate deportation unless he turned over his pot supplier, which he did. Word got out, and that was NOT favorably received. Even Lenny Bruce said he ought to be forgiven, but he never was and was soon replaced by Jerry Yester-and the band fell apart soon after. Yanofsky amde some solo albums which were actually pretty good, but has vanished. Sebastian disappeared for 2 years and then turned up backstage at Woodstock with a guitar and a bunch of songs. He spent 3 days going on in between acts and jamming with everyone in sight, and released a solo album (on which he was backed on steel by one Buddy Emmons for "Rainbows all over Your Blues", and on which Emmons actually played a Moog Synthesizer on one song!) which kicked off a pretty solid solo career, capped by Tarzana Kid, which contains "Faces of Appalachia", perhaps his finest work.(That album was produced by Llowell George, incidentally)

He currently is working with another jug band and touring the East Coast. It's a high energy act, and Sebastian is fun live. One of my favorite songs is one he plays on an 8 string guitar called "Freezing from the Inside Out". Growing up on the island, he was my favorite singer-songwriter.

john

------------------
Fulawka D-10 9&5
Better Late than Never!
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel

[This message was edited by JB Arnold on 06 January 2001 at 08:04 PM.][This message was edited by JB Arnold on 06 January 2001 at 08:11 PM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 6 Jan 2001 9:54 pm

Hey, John, that's something else that you and I have in common. I was a TOTAL Sebastian freak in high school, even copping his aviator eyeglasses and muttonchop sideburns! In my band, ALL we played were Spoonful tunes, and I used to hang out in the village trying to bump into them. I finally bumped into John "by accident" coming out of a drugstore, exchanged a few words, and went home on the train a happy camper.

Yanovsky, by the way, is a successful restauranteur in Toronto. Thanks for your post about the bust, etc. I never did get that story straight. After he ratted out the dealer, did he still get deported or did John dump him? It was such a shame. Jerry Yester was a nobody with even less talent that took the Spoonful right down the toilet. Like what, "She's Still a Freakin' Mystery to Me?" Gimme a break! Just like with Paul Cotton replacing Messina. Down the TOILET!

Rich Paton · Post by **Rich Paton** » 6 Jan 2001 11:08 pm

I recall reading a review of the "POCO Seven"
album in Stereo review back in around 1974. The reviewer stated "Poco loses key members like I lose ballpoint pens, and the latest departee is Richey Furay. And they are doing just fine in spite of it".
At that point in their evolution, Rusty Young seemed to have grabbed the horse by the reins, and began writing tunes, playing even more (!) instruments, and refining his vocal skills. It was interesting to follow how Furay's excellent vocals influenced both Tim Schmidt and Rusty, and how they grew musically despite the myriad of personnel changes and the adversities imposed by the record industry and the record-buying public.
It was a Rusty Young song, "Crazy Love", that finally got a top ten (or was it a #1 hit?) in 1978. Young & Grantham had gone to England and recruited a new bass player. (Curiously, the Eagles' first album, with it's "wake up & smell the desert" vibe, was recorded in London).
Poco may not have reached the commercial success (and it's my guess that neither did they rake in near as much $$$) that the juggernaut Eagles did. But they were for the most part charter members of, and MAJOR players in the biz of the country-rock genre.
Jason, how early is early POCO, Eagles, FBB etc? The oldest Poco CD I have is "Crazy Eyes", ca. 1973. Here are some great songs on it and later albums.
Blue Water/Fool's Gold (Cotton/Young)
Here We Go Again (Schmidt)
Brass Buttons (Parsons)
Rocky Mountain Breakdown (Young)
Sagebrush Serenade (Young)
What Ever Happened to Your Smile? (Schmidt)
Keep On Tryin' (Schmidt)
Flying Solo (Schmidt/Brennan)
Indian Summer (Cotton)
Me & You (Schmidt)
Find Out in Time (Schmidt)
Rose of Cimmaron (Young)
Just Like Me (Schmidt)
Company's Comin'/Slow Poke (Young)
Stqarin' at the Sky (Schmidt)
Tulsa Turnaround (Cotton)
Heart Of The Night (Cotton)
Crazy Love (Young)
Legend (Young)
Widowmaker (Young)
Ashes/Feudin' (Young)
Sea of Hertbreak ( ? )
Ribbon of Darkness ( ? )
Cajun Moon (J.J. Cale)
I think those are some of the better ones.
Schmidt's "I Can't Tell You Why" with the Eagles is another. Especially as I heard it at the 1992 Ringo Starr & His All-Star Band show at the California Mid-State Fairgrounds, with Nils Lofgren on lead guitar, a real "Gossebump Express" experience.
JB, I went to a concert around '79 or so, where the opening band was "The Alpha Band". I believe they had one or more Spoonful cats
in it. Who was that/were they?
Great thread.[This message was edited by Rich Paton on 06 January 2001 at 11:10 PM.][This message was edited by Rich Paton on 06 January 2001 at 11:12 PM.]

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 7 Jan 2001 8:01 am

JB, don't forget that Zal did a stint with Kris Kristofferson's band in the early 1970s.

Rich, by early.. I mean early.
Poco's debut LP 'Pickin' Up The Pieces' with the original line-up (although by this stage Randy Meisner was with Ricky Nelson, so he wasn't credited as a member).
It mixed a lot of country rock meets Buffalo Springfield type rock outs, at times very mellow and simpy beautiful. While at other times they sound like a West Coast version of the Small Faces.. with much better harmonies.

Early FBBS, well te first three albums from 1969 to 1971 are awesome, although I do prefer the debut LP 'The Gilded Palace Of Sin' from 1969.

The Alpha Band featured T-Bone Burnett, who cut a series of great solo albums starting in the 1980s. Burnett is from Texas, hit the L.A scene in the early 1970s, played lead guitar for Delaney & Bonnie in '72, worked in the studio scene etc.
He was part of Bob Dylan's Rolling Thunder tour, and formed the Alpha Band with a couple of other dudes from the same Dylan tour. If memory serves me right they cut three albums and split around 1980.

JB Arnold · Post by **JB Arnold** » 7 Jan 2001 8:48 am

Hi Jim! yet another commonality, eh?

Well, what I heard, and what got reported thru the musicians I knew on the island was that Zally got forced out by the label, who were convinced that their hot property would never sell another record. Record contracts in those days were slave labor agreements, and while I'm sure they made Sebastian do the dirty work, the label was behind it. The Spoonful were a very hip act at the time, and losing your cache was about the worst thing that could happen. Yester was the wrong guy, and I think John probably saw the end of the road coming at that point. It's a shame, because unlike a lot of those bands, the Spoonful had a solid, commercial and prolific writer in Sebastian and a lot of friends in the industry-they could have gone for a while, and I think we missed something by not hearing them mature as artists. They had great sense of what worked-for instance, on "Summer in the City", they simply couldn't get a big enough reverb on the drums to make them happy. So they moved the whole kit and mics into the stairwell of a 6 story building and played them on one of the landings. Now THAT'S reverb, and that's how they got that distinctive sound on there. In the 60's, that kind of thing was a major event, and cost a lot of $$. The gear wasn't as portable as it is now. You had to have some real pull to get that okay'ed by the label, and the spoonful had that pull, and creative control to boot.
All in all, a sad end to a potentially great story. I still have all those LP's, and they hold up remarkably well today-the litmus test for good material.

I don't think Zally got deported, but there wasn't much for him to do here, so I think he eventually left anyway-as Jason pointed out, he has turned up here and there-with Kristofferson and others. But never as high profile as Sebastian was later.
John

------------------
Fulawka D-10 9&5
Better Late than Never!
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel

[This message was edited by JB Arnold on 07 January 2001 at 08:52 AM.]

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 7 Jan 2001 10:34 am

After the dust settled, Zal Yanofsky popped up in Kingston, Ontario (2 hours south of me) and pursued his lifelong interest in culinary arts.
Last Friday night, I ate at his restaurant, "The Chez Piggy" on Princess St. in Kingston before my gig. The food is Superb!
-John

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 7 Jan 2001 11:25 am

Thanks for the info, J.B.
J.S., did you see Zal there? Is he ever on-premises? I'd get a real kick outta seein' his funny face once more in my life.

Rich Paton · Post by **Rich Paton** » 7 Jan 2001 12:20 pm

Jason, thanks for the info! Now that you jarred my otherwise inert gray matter in that memory bank, I remember what the Alphas' pedigree was. I think that was a Dave Mason concert at the Arlington Theatre in Santa Barbara, during the unfortunate onset of HIS final backslide from the forefront of commercial music. BTW, who played the PSG part in the version of "Every Woman" that is on Mason's "It's Like You Never Left"? It was done around 1973 or so.
For me Poco was the first, and the far more enjoyable group (vs. CSN+Y) to fill some of the musical void I experienced when the Springfield folded. I had gotten some good exposure to country music as a kid, through some of my parents' aquaintances and from the country TV musical programs, but the quirky country-flavored songs on the first Buffalo Springfield album really got me interested.
When "Again" came out, the sound & feel of "A Child's Claim to Fame", Furay singing lead vocal with his fabulous voice, and the instrumental break when Neil Young slugs it out note-for-note with James Burton...
Neil on a big, fat Gretsch and Burton on dobro...I was reeled in hook, line & sinker.
.Messina's bailing out of Poco, in retrospect, raises a big "what if". What would have come of Poco's music and the prospect of total commercial success, had he stayed? Loggins & Messina were hugely successful during their brief tenure, & Poco long stood right at the hairy edge of going over the top commercially. I think the outcome of all things Poco would have been fared better, but then again it's just another "what if".
Perhaps, had Paul Cotton played a Telecaster and a D-28 instead of Les Pauls, Strats, and Ovation "acoustics?...
And looking back at it all, it's now obvious that the Springfield should have hired Rusty Young on the day the band was formed!!! :>)
[This message was edited by Rich Paton on 07 January 2001 at 12:26 PM.]

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 7 Jan 2001 1:07 pm

Jim, Zally wasn't there the night I was, but I understand he is there from time to time. The guitarist I was with, Roger Plant, is an old friend of his, and left his card to say hello.
Zally also runs the fantastic bakery "Pan Chancho" around the corner from Chez Piggy.
The restaurant also has a great cookbook out ("The Chez Piggy Cookbook" of course) which is adorned with several photos of Zal and his funny face

Kingston is a Tres Hip little city.
-John

Will Houston · Post by **Will Houston** » 7 Jan 2001 2:56 pm

Paul Cottons name keeps coming up, just interested to know if anybody ever heard his first group illinois speed press? one of my favorite bands. Saw them once in 69 with tull and zeplin what a show. and they only had 2 albums the first one a rock blusey thing and the second called "Duet" with him and other speed press member Kal David.One side is an all acoustic country sounding, with the original "Bad Weather"

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 7 Jan 2001 5:05 pm

Rich, it would have been cool if Buffalo Springfield had Rusty, but one of their biggest problems was that they had three lead players!
LOL