An anti-Kenny G. rant from Pat Metheney

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 8 Nov 2000 11:29 am

The things you come across on the web ...

http://www.jazzguitar.com/features/kennyg.html

I guess I'd better destroy that CD of my Weissenborn licks over dubbed over E's Nightlife.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 8 Nov 2000 3:46 pm

Pat doesn't mince any words, does he?![This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 08 November 2000 at 03:47 PM.]

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 8 Nov 2000 4:30 pm

Well, yes it has come to the crunch.. why not attack Kenny G.?
Why not come out with both guns blazing on this issue and take that little worm and his grave robbling to the maximum?

I had no idea that the little geek had done such a recording and to be honest I found it a little disgusting. Maybe Kenny G. really thinks that he is worthy of such a thing, or that he's been a life long fan of Louie.
Still anyone with a shred of taste and decentcy would have baulked at this project.

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The future ain't what it used to be

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 8 Nov 2000 5:34 pm

I agree with Pat....the "Wonderful World" overdub was sacrilegious.

But if he had to play "Redneck Girl" as much as I do, he'd be jumpin' at the chance to play endless dorian runs over Dm7 ad naseum.

Just like Kenny

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 8 Nov 2000 8:07 pm

We already covered this subject. Not again I hope!!!!!

Search a few months back.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 8 Nov 2000 8:37 pm

But you all would love it it Pete Drake had overdubbed a couple of Dive Bombers on all of Satchmo's records.

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 9 Nov 2000 6:37 am

Pat shouldn't sugar coat his feelings so much

Boomer · Post by **Boomer** » 9 Nov 2000 11:22 am

I guess my read on it is talking about music is somewhat akin to dancing about architecture, to quote a well known jazz player from the past. While I agree that what KG did was tasteless, all Pat really had to say was just that; that what KG did was tasteless. To go into his feelings about KG's playing technique was somewhat vitriolic. It left the impression that if KG had been a true jazz player with better improvisation techniques, then what KG did would have been more acceptable. It also smelled of sour grapes to some extent. Best, Boomer

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 10 Nov 2000 6:57 am

Boomer, Earnest, and others.
Okay, sure i was digging the whole beatin' on Kenny G. thing, sure it's fun.
The thing is, I have a fundamental problem with tributes that aren't always done with the greatest of taste or tact.

To me it's like the Beatles doing the 'new recording' "Free As A Bird," which was basically the surviving trio working up an old demo of Lennons. I found it a little distasteful, but not because it was a band thing, it was a wonderful tribute really. Just that the original demo was so cruddy and not really worth building a whole new song around. It was a nice little song, but Lennon' vocals were really not up to scratch and the tempo of the number was lagging and dragging and the time, which isn't unsual for someone with a guitar all alone doing a demo.

And I really hate all those crap albums that Eddie Kramer did on Hendrix in the 1970s. And that's basically because Eddie dragged any old blues jam from the vault then overdubbed new backing tracks (some quite, quite lame) over the original guys who were actually jamming and helping to inspire the song's actual structure.

In the Kenny G. situation, okay where does that leave us.
Would you like to hear Shania Twain on Patsy Cline songs in a duet?
Kylie Mynogue on Marai Calas numbers, or perhaps Boys 2 Men harmonising on a few Hank Williams numbers with the Senior Hank?

No thanks!

Jim West · Post by **Jim West** » 10 Nov 2000 7:31 am

I'm not defending Kenny G. for the "Wonderful World" duet. But those who did not like it must also say the same about Michael Martin Murphy's duet with Marty Robbin's "Big Iron" which I actually thought was pretty good.

As far as the Pat Metheny rant goes I thought he got a little out there. I don't neccesarily disagree with what he said but I thought he had a little bit of elitist "I know more than anyone else" attitude on the subject.

The way he came across made me glad I don't know him. He doesn't seem like the type of guy I would hang with if you know what I mean.

Jim West

Boomer · Post by **Boomer** » 10 Nov 2000 10:12 am

Jason - No, I wouldn't like to hear that Shania/Cline duet, as it would be just as tasteless as the KG/Satchmo debacle. And I would hope if that sort of scenario came to pass, critics would decry the event as such without ranting on the talents (or lack thereof) of Shania the way Pat did on KG.

Best, Boomer

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 10 Nov 2000 10:56 am

Call it a rant if you want, but I think it's refreshing that Metheny explains, in musical terms, why Kenny G. is a joke.
I agree with him. Anyone who is ignorant enough of the harmony and counterpoint of Jazz has no damned business playing it. What the man plays is wrong as Metheny has technically explained. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. He's a joke.
The fact that Metheny's essay has a bitter edge to it is quite understandable to me - As anyone who has dedicated their life to studying music only to be replaced by a DJ or a Karaoke machine would agree.
Personally, I wish Kenny G. the best, and I'm sure I could sit down with him and enjoy his company alot. Mucically, I think he's a complete skid mark on the profession's underwear.
Nobody can argue that MacDonalds sells more hamburgers than anyone. Likewise, nobody could argue that it's one whoop-ass pathetic excuse for food.
Just my ________ opinion.

-John

Jim West · Post by **Jim West** » 12 Nov 2000 11:51 am

I gave the Pat M./Kenny G. rant to a friend of mine who also does not claim to be a KG fan. He said he saw an interview with Mr. G last year on TV and Kenny said specifically that he "was not a jazz musician and did NOT play jazz".

Now I'm not sure where Pat M. is coming from but I suspect there is something else going on between himself and KG besides a musical difference of opinion. I applaud anyone who speaks up to defend a standard as he or she may see it, but Pat M. went off the edge and was a jerk in the first degree. This was not a difference of opinion or a clarification of what a musical style is supposed to be, it was a personal attack plain and simple. I suggest Pat take his negative energies and apply them to something more positive such as trying to sell as many records as Kenny G which I suspect Pat's all ****ed off about in the first place. Think about it, if Kenny G was some virtual unknown selling less CD's than Pat Metheny would Pat bother taking the time to verbally slaughter Kenny G's success. I doubt it.

The recording business is just that; a business. Kenny G has created a market for his own product, like it or not. I'm sure Mr. Metheny wouldn't mind enjoying the kind of success Kenny has created for himself and if he had that type of success I doubt very much he'd be sittin' around try to tear someone else down who didn't play the scales exactly the way they are taught at the Berklee School of Music.

As far as the "Wonderful Life" cover, maybe Pat should ask Louis Armstrongs family if they mind the income of the royalty's from Mr. G's rendition of his work. I think not.

Mr. Metheny is an elitist, pure and simple, a self-annointed expert of his particular art form. I like what Pat Metheny does musically but he should keep his mouth shut when it comes to the personal attacks. Mr. M. has lowered himself to a level that, short of an apology to Mr.Kenny G, will not recover from in a long time in my opinion.

Kenny G, even though I do not buy your CD's, I always appreciate someone who can make a living doing what they love to do. Mr. Metheny, I think you have some serious soul searching to do.

Jim West

John Kavanagh · Post by **John Kavanagh** » 12 Nov 2000 2:00 pm

I like Pat Metheny's music and dislike Kenny G's. I haven't heard the cut of KG "crapping on Louis's grave", and probably wouldn't like it.

It's worth saying, by the way, that Armstrong is not considered great because of throwaway pop hits like "Wonderful World", but because he was an original, creative, and extremely influential soloist in the 20's and early 30's. Now if KG overdubbed a lame counterpoint to "Potatohead Blues", I'd lose my perspective fast.

But is it really a moral issue to take another artist's work and incorporate something of your own (lame or not) into it?
It is a moral issue to give proper credit and compensation, of course. It's not as if KG's collage has replaced the original - if anything it might turn a few people onto the real thing, like all of us who got turned onto real blues by hearing Stevie Ray Vaughan (not that I'm comparing them - SRV was a good musician).

Also, this kind of thing has been going on a long time. Some people might take issue with Mozart writing trombone parts for Handel's Messiah. I myself used to get apoplectic with rage over 19th century editors who rewrote Bach's music to make it sound more like Liszt. Where the hell did Leonard Bernstein get off rewriting "Romeo and Juliet"?

Where it's bad is when it helps to coarsen people's taste and hide something good behind something cheap, which is arguably the case here. No penalties for bad art, thank Heaven, except the risk of being dissed or ignored. (Or getting rich.)

Metheny's opinion is valid, but Kenny is also "entitled" to make the record as long as he pays relevant copyright fees and doesn't claim someone else's work as his own, the same rules of thumb I'd apply to rappers who sample other people's tunes for their music. (Don't let's get started on that.)

Boomer was right, it's probably not worth a whole lot of talk anyway.

I stand up for my preferences by not buying KG's music, not that I was ever tempted, and by generally ignoring him in the forlorn hope that he will go away. He doesn't hurt me any.

Let's all fight the music we dislike by ignoring it!

[This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 21 May 2001 at 12:48 PM.]

Jeff Agnew · Post by **Jeff Agnew** » 14 Nov 2000 12:30 pm

Boomster,

Trivia fans may enjoy knowing that there are two versions of the quotation to which you alluded. The other is:

"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."

Both have been attributed to everyone from Laurie Anderson to Elvis Costello to Frank Zappa.

In a perverse display of what people do when they have too much time on their hands, there is even an entire web page devoted to the phrase.

Sorry for the diversion. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

Regards,
Jeff[This message was edited by Jeff Agnew on 14 November 2000 at 12:31 PM.]

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 14 Nov 2000 6:03 pm

I've had a few veterans (including what Boomer wrote here) that have calmly explained that slagging off others is not what they do.

Now, that's pretty cool.

Some of us, well we just have bog fat mouths (or fingers?) and can't seem to help ourselves. We have to jump in and be a critic. Some like myslef have a bit of a rock or punk rock background, and let's face it, there's no other genere than rock where the fans and pickers are so seperatist and eltist, picc up any Brit rock mad (NME for a start) and you'll soon get what I mean if you don't have any experience of this.

So yeah, when it comes to the crunch, I do spend a certain amount of time regretting some things I have written. Thankfully this attitude is something I'm trying to ignore while working on my book.

Having said that, I guess I will take note of badly written books, it's my area and I feel free to critique.. just not so harshly.
I guess Pat saw someone who he gets lumped in with in layman terms and has no musical respect for.
One thing I've noticed on the forum, we tend to be pretty harsh to strangers, but after we meet.. well we tend to see the person and mellow out a bit.
Now if you could get Pat and Kenny G. in a room, hey maybe at the end both would be able to walk out.

Jason

Bob Anderson · Post by **Bob Anderson** » 14 Nov 2000 10:23 pm

I like he words of Bill Anderson (no relation) "Nobody likes me ,but the fans"

Bill Rowlett · Post by **Bill Rowlett** » 19 Nov 2000 1:03 pm

All this sort of pales when compared to the Buddy Rich rants. . .

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 19 Nov 2000 2:02 pm

This rant about Kenny Gorelick and Pat Metheny was bantered about here months ago.

The phrase "writing about music is like... etc." rolls off the tongue real easy because it's clever, but the meaning is totally bogus.

It's a freakin' sound bite!

As a sound bite, it's about as truthful as the sound bites coming from Washington or anywheres else. Writing is the visual form of the codification of thoughts, one of the most effective communication tools we have. To use the "dancing" phrase is to say "communicating about music is irrelevant." The existence of the Forum is enough to show that most of us here disagree with that concept.

As a sound bite, it's a handy little thing to pull out to diffuse criticism. When someone's music is praised in print, the artist rarely invokes the phrase; when the artist is dissed, it's a convenient phrase to use to defend one's position when more in depth analysis is inconvenient, too much work, or tends to support the original criticism.

I'm not a Kenny G fan, don't own any of his music, but I had the opportunity to attend one of his concerts years ago (free tickets from the newspaper I worked for). The music did not offend me, and I actually learned a few things about how to deliver a song to an audience.

From Pat Metheny, monster guitarist whose artistry and technique is beyond my level of comprehension, I did learn how to "preach to the choir."

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Boomer · Post by **Boomer** » 19 Nov 2000 10:30 pm

Sorry Herb, I beg to differ. A playback is worth a thousand words. Best, Boomer

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 20 Nov 2000 8:30 am

Boomer
I agree with your original post in its entirety re: Gorelick v. Metheny, except for the use of the phrase in question. To clarify, my feelings are: the Kenny/Satchmo project was arrogant and tasteless in concept; Kenny G is probably not as evil and talentless as Metheny claims; Kenny is trying to make some bucks; the author of "Wonderful World" probably took his wife out to dinner when he found out Kenny covered the song

; Metheny probably has the same bitterness about pop music success that, for example, we know that Barney Kessel and Jimmy Bryant experienced; that the article probably says more about who/what Metheny is than who/what Kenny G is.

But as to the phrase in question ("dancing...et.al."), I've seen it used by artists too many times to counter negative music criticism, regardless of how accurate and informed that criticism may be. As such, its used like a political sound bite to quickly and insufficiently avoid an answer that would require thought and content.

True, the music speaks for itself, and one person will hear beauty and meaning when another hears cacophony and gibberish from the same performance. Some performers are skilled, others not. And I also feel the same about the field of music writing. Some critics have mastery of their thoughts, their knowledge, and the language; others write gibberish, and its up to the reader to decide which he prefers

.

I just re-read my first paragraph, and it sounds like it was written by an attorney, ferchrissakes!!! I've been watching this Florida Election thing too damn much!!

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 20 November 2000 at 12:36 PM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 20 Nov 2000 12:29 pm

I offer one more "sound bite," this from Duke Ellington, and one with which I agree more than "dancing..."

"There are two kinds of music, good and bad. I play the good kind."

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 20 Nov 2000 1:00 pm

Herb, yes.... and one more quote from Ellington, if I may:

"If it sounds bad, it is bad. "

It would be a sorry day for this forum and any other medium dedicated to discussing music if all were prevented from making
intelligent criticisms.

-John

Adam · Post by **Adam** » 21 Nov 2000 11:04 am

Ya know,I think there actually IS a CD that came out last year that has Shania Twain duetting with Patsy Cline!At any rate it's a cd of a bunch of young country hacks overdubbed onto classic Patsy Cline records.People will do anything to turn over a buck.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 21 Nov 2000 11:42 am

I didn't think MCA, who owns the Patsy material, would allow overdubbing on their masters. I guess they contacted Patsy directly!

I know she doesn't need the bucks, though.

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