Versatile 8 String Lap Steel Tuning

[FABRICE DUCLUZEAU]

Hi Folks

I recently took up lap steel.

I have an 8 string Harley Benton, a Mission Engineering Passive Volume Pedal and a Fender Excelsior Pro so I have the gear side of things covered.

What I now need is to settle on a tuning for my 8 string.

I'm working through Cindy Cashdollar's Western Swing videos but they use C6.

I'm looking for a versatile tuning which would cover the following styles & musicians (ideally):

- Santo & Johnny
- Hawaiian Music Standards (Song of the Islands, Sweet Leilani, Sol Hoopi,etc)
- Leon McAuliffe

I play some Jazz guitar, have played open D / open E slide in the past and play blues harp so am used to diatonic tunings.

I know that some of those players used some form of C#m and that Leon McAuliffe used some variation of E13.

I also appreciate that C#m is the relative minor of E Major but am a bit overwhelmed with the plethora of tunings, string gauges etc.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thank You

[Pete Martin]

Hello Fabrice, welcome to the forum!

You can see Leon's tunings here: viewtopic.php?t=254597&sid=70f0eae05223 ... de30f310f5

I started playing in February, but quickly found one tuning wasn't enough for what I wanted to play. I got a double neck Stringmaster and use A6 and Leon's E13 you see in the above link. While new to the steel, I have listened to Western Swing for 50 plus years and knew the sound I wanted to play long before starting.

However after a few months, I still wanted more versatility. I bought a triple neck Stringmaster and use those same two tunings plus B11. I am playing Western Swing but will eventually get into more 40's and 50's jazz, which I play on mandolin now. The B11 tuning will come in very handy for that.

At the suggestion of Brother Ethan Shaw, I've also been playing around with changing the bottom F# in A6 tuning to a reentrant D# (a half step below the lower E string). It is great for dominant chords where I had to do slants before. With this tuning, no slants for most of those chords! Ethan plays this as his A6 tuning and I can see myself changing to that. I can do those same things on the B11 neck, but I like being able to get those non slant chords but stay in regular A6.

There is no right or wrong as far as tunings go. I started for about a week with C6 on a 6 string lap steel, but within a couple of days saw 6 strings and C6 would not get me the Western Swing sound I was looking for, so bought the D8 Stringmaster. I really like A6. I don't play Hawaiian, only WS so can't comment on those.

I'd say pick a tuning, dive in and eventually you will get to tuning(s) that let you do what you want. Also I know a large amount of professional musicians who started on one instrument in one style but switched to something else after a while. Very common as you listen and play more, no telling which direcion your ear gets pulled.

Best of luck!

[FABRICE DUCLUZEAU]

Hi Pete

Thanks for sharing your experience and for the detailed answer.

I do have an 8 string set of Pyramid B11 so I might just try installing that and see where that takes me once I'll have finished with Cindy's DVDs.

Her DVDs are very good by the way, I could quickly see why some tunings make more sense than others - specially as they relate to slants as you mentioned.

I have one last question though, do you use roundwound or flatwound strings?

Best Wishes

Fabrice

[David M Brown]

At the suggestion of Brother Ethan Shaw, I've also been playing around with changing the bottom F# in A6 tuning to a reentrant D# (a half step below the lower E string). It is great for dominant chords where I had to do slants before. With this tuning, no slants for most of those chords! Ethan plays this as his A6 tuning and I can see myself changing to that.

There is also the A6 variant that Billy Hew Len used, where the lowest F# and A were raised to G and Bb.

[Glenn Wilde]

I started with bottleneck and major tunings and the way more complex tunings started making sense to me is to learn to play all the major tuning licks I know in them, in other words to avoid the strings that made them different until I got used to where the familiar stuff was, then start easing into the rest of it. I use A6 on my Fender 8, I also have several 6 string steels in High A, E, C6, B11, low G, etc.....

[FABRICE DUCLUZEAU]

There is also the A6 variant that Billy Hew Len used, where the lowest F# and A were raised to G and Bb.

Hi David

Thank you. It does look like a lot of you guys like A6.

I assume it is the same tuning than C6.

Thank you

Fabrice

[FABRICE DUCLUZEAU]

I started with bottleneck and major tunings and the way more complex tunings started making sense to me is to learn to play all the major tuning licks I know in them, in other words to avoid the strings that made them different until I got used to where the familiar stuff was, then start easing into the rest of it. I use A6 on my Fender 8, I also have several 6 string steels in High A, E, C6, B11, low G, etc.....

Hi Glenn

It seems A6 is your 8 string tuning of choice as well.

I have merely scratched the surface of C6 but I can already see some of its interesting features. I really need to investigate it more.

Any gauge you would recommend for an 8 string A6?

Thank You

Fabrice

[Mike Fried]

I started with bottleneck and major tunings and the way more complex tunings started making sense to me is to learn to play all the major tuning licks I know in them, in other words to avoid the strings that made them different until I got used to where the familiar stuff was, then start easing into the rest of it. I use A6 on my Fender 8, I also have several 6 string steels in High A, E, C6, B11, low G, etc.....

Hi Glenn

It seems A6 is your 8 string tuning of choice as well.

I have merely scratched the surface of C6 but I can already see some of its interesting features. I really need to investigate it more.

Any gauge you would recommend for an 8 string A6?

Thank You

Fabrice, normally the A6 tuning can use the same string set as the C6, because the top note (E) is the 5 of the A6 chord, whereas it's the major third of the C6 chord. You can retune the C6's C's up to A6's C#, and it's G's down to A6's F#. The intervals are the same in the standard versions of both tunings.

[David M Brown]

Thank you. It does look like a lot of you guys like A6.

I assume it is the same tuning than C6.

The typical A6 tuning L-H is F# A C# E F# A C# E.

This is like the C6 with a G on top: L-H - A C E G A C E G

Many if not most C6 is played with the E on top: L-H - G A C E G A C E

A common variant: C Bb C E G A C E

It's also easy to use the same set of string for F# A C# E F# A C# E and G A C E G A C E.

[FABRICE DUCLUZEAU]

Fabrice, normally the A6 tuning can use the same string set as the C6, because the top note (E) is the 5 of the A6 chord, whereas it's the major third of the C6 chord. You can retune the C6's C's up to A6's C#, and it's G's down to A6's F#. The intervals are the same in the standard versions of both tunings.

Hello Mike

Thanks that helps a lot.

I'm going to stick to Cindy's C6 DVD then tune down.

[FABRICE DUCLUZEAU]

The typical A6 tuning L-H is F# A C# E F# A C# E.

This is like the C6 with a G on top: L-H - A C E G A C E G

Many if not most C6 is played with the E on top: L-H - G A C E G A C E

A common variant: C Bb C E G A C E

It's also easy to use the same set of string for F# A C# E F# A C# E and G A C E G A C E.

Thanks David

That is useful.

I found an online Spanish shop which sells Andy Volk's Slide Rules so I've ordered a copy.

You guys are super helpful, thanks to all it makes one feel really welcome

[John Watson]

Hello Fabrice
I recently got an 8 string from James Adams, great guitar! and wanted something that would work in blue grass styles too so I have - low to high
G
Bb
C
E
G
A
C
E
I find it a really useful tuning for different styles, although I'm thinking the Leon McCauliffe type stuff might work better with the various 6th tunings so don't want to lead you in the wrong direction. Anyone else use a 13th tuning for 8 strings.
Cheers
John

[K Maul]

I don’t really do much Hawaiian right now but I think my E13 variant works well for many things. I use it for Swing, Rockabilly Country, Blues and early Rock. I tune lo to hi EBDEG#BC#E. I bring the middle E up to F# for some things and can quickly retune to A6 or C6. I had a triple neck Custom but got tired of lugging it. I figured if I couldn’t get the job done with 2 necks… FORGET IT!! Haha. I have a Dual Pro that I keep in the aforementioned E tuning and use the other neck for B11 and A6(sometimes down to G6). Ok…sometimes a D6 like Don Helms E6 but a step down to suit the string gauges.

[Michael Kiese]

Aloha Fabrice,

Just chiming in with my 2¢.

C6 and/or A6 are the most versatile tunings, in my opinion, and should be treated like standard tunings. They will get you all the sounds you need in the most comfortable positions of all the common key signatures in all the most popular music genres. It's the most efficient path to playing music with others as quick as possible.

Like others have mentioned, you can usually go back and forth from C6/A6 on the same set of strings, so that's very handy and pragmatic. An added benefit is using B11 in addition to C6 and A6. All those 3 tunings, C6/A6/B11 can be achieved using the same set of strings, which is a very handy feature.

That said, you must learn forward and reverse slants. So if you have an aversion to slants, then you'll have to go down the rabbit hole of figuring all kinds of workarounds.

Billy Hew Len played A6 and was missing his left hand, so all he could do was forward slants, yet Billy covered A LOT of musical territory on A6.

There is more than one path up the mountain. The path you take doesn't matter so much as that you arrive to where you wanna go.

Certain open tunings are very idiomatic of Blues and Dobro music, so they're handy for a more specialized sound. So every tuning is valid for a use.

The longer I play steel, the more that I find that I can get everything I need on 6 strings. 8 strings offers more easy access for soloing/improv line playing.

For lap steel, 8 strings is more than enough. Add any more lower strings, and you start getting into the lowest octave of the piano, and that's bass player territory, so you can create problems within a band context. Add any more higher strings, and it becomes redundant.

For six string C6, I use (Low to High) CEGACE.

For eight string C6, I go between 2 tunings (Low to High) ACEGACEG, and ACEGACED.

You have to experiment and use a thin gauge string for the top string in order to go back and forth from a D to a G.

The C6 with a high D is Buddy Emmons's version of C6. I learned that from Doug Jernigan. It really helps playing linear style horn lines over jazz improv.

The High G gives you a more traditional sound, and yields other chord possibilities and improv ideas. For example, you can also get nice major 7 chords with the high G. If you listen to Billy Hew Len, he likes playing those major 7 chords on the top 3 strings of A6.

When it comes to chords and the sounds they create, they wear many "masks". There are very many interwoven relationships between chords and the sound they create. There are chords within chords. So if you know how to play a simple triad, or a group of 4 notes over a certain bass note, you can get every sound you need.

Every single type of chord and sound is in the major 6 tuning (C6, A6, D6, whatever). You just have to KNOW it's there.

Major, Minor, Dominant, Diminished, Augmented, Altered. Every single type of fancy chord is available to you. You just have to KNOW it's there, and that's the fun of unlocking the puzzle.

For example, if you wanted to play a Cmajor7#11 chord because you like that sound...all you have to do is play D6 over C bass. Simply play the top 4 strings at the second fret over C Bass. Boom there's your pretty ending chord.

A lot of people try to reinvent the wheel with tunings and try to create tunings to avoid slants, etc. That's fine. If that's how they enjoy, that's great. The journey of discovery in itself is a very rewarding and fulfilling process.

I'm just attempting to point out that everything you need is in the major 6 tuning. Jerry Byrd gave it to us right at the start, in the 1930's.

Nobody went further down the tuning rabbit hole than Jerry Byrd. After studying a lot of his transcriptions, most of the alternate tunings he explored were basically a variation of C6 or a dominant chord, and the different strings allowed him to get a pretty sounding cadence or chord that happened once or twice within a song. There always was a group of strings that he used like a C6 tuning.

Jerry would explore a tuning, and use it on a handful of songs. You can tell which tunings were the most versatile by seeing how many songs he used them on. C6 is the clear winner. It's clear what tunings he abandoned because you only see them appear on a few songs.

Towards the end of his life, Jerry chose a double neck guitar with C6 on one neck, and C Diatonic on the other. The C Diatonic never changed. He would alter the C6 tuning per the needs of the song. But he always came back to C6 as his base. He would go between whatever tuning he had on the close neck and C Diatonic on the far neck mid-song. It's a very nice contrast. That was after a lifetime of deep, thoughtful study, exploration, and discovery.

Like I said, nobody chased more tuning rabbit holes than Jerry Byrd, and he had an immense repertoire of songs that he played.

A tuning is just a tuning. Standard guitar tuning of EADGBE isn't a “Hawaiian”, "Jazzy" or "Country" tuning. It's just a tuning that's used to play all styles. It's up to the musician who's playing it to make the music sound idiomatic of the genre he/she is playing.

Jerry Byrd loved Hawaiian music and Country music, and his sound was a combination of the two regardless of the tuning he played. His soul and his sound always came through.

Bottomline: C6 (including any transpositions and slight alterations) is the most versatile lap steel tuning for any genre. C6 should be treated as a standard tuning for lap steel. Learn it first, and then explore others.

Again, just my 2¢.

Music is to enjoy. Music is a language. There are no rules, and even if people try to create rules, there's nobody to enforce them upon you.

So just explore and enjoy!

Even if you chase a dead end, the journey will be fun and you'll learn from it. Just don't quit, and keep going!

Happy practicing!

[BJ Burbach]

John,
You got the blue one?? WOW! Post a pic, please.
I use C13 JAS with the low C on an Adams tricone8 because of the music I play. Same as you but with the low C. I'm a guitar refugee, so I like the high E.
I also have an Adams dobro8 with G6, pretty much the standard for those and it's hard to see any limitations. You can play Bluegrass, if you keep your fingers off the E's, swing, if you don't and if you have heard Rich Arnold on this tuning, then you know that sky's the limit. I use both tunings on lap steels too and just working it out... Those other tunings out in the den are just for fun.
EGBDEGBD L>H
and yes, up two frets is your A6.

BJ

[Pete Martin]

There is also the A6 variant that Billy Hew Len used, where the lowest F# and A were raised to G and Bb.

After seeing this post, I tuned one of the necks on my T8 to this and like it. Two tritones and a full diminished chord. I started to learn Secret Love in Eb. Then decided to re string the G and Bb an octave higher and REALLY like this!!! There are so many chord options here that I miss having in standard A6. I will need to play this over a longer period of time, but I could see this becoming my main tuning.

Thanks so much for this David!!

[Allan Revich]

Perhaps the most important lessons that I’ve learned on this journey are these two:

1) The more versatile the tuning, the steeper the learning curve.
2) Every string has every note on it.

Seems to me that most players eventually settle on 6th, 9th, or 13th (6/13 & 7) tunings. IE, a major chord plus one or two extensions.

[BJ Burbach]

Hey Pete,
it's worth exploring Billy and this thread even has a transcription that Jeff did from the Hal Smith tapes.

viewtopic.php?p=96535



BJ

[Pete Martin]

Thanks BJ!

[Brad Bechtel]

Hey Pete,
it's worth exploring Billy and this thread even has a transcription that Jeff did from the Hal Smith tapes.

viewtopic.php?p=96535

BJ

Unfortunately the link to the audio (from 2006) is no longer valid, but big thanks to Jeff Au Hoy for his transcription of what was there at the time.

[David M Brown]

After seeing this post, I tuned one of the necks on my T8 to this and like it. Two tritones and a full diminished chord. I started to learn Secret Love in Eb. Then decided to re string the G and Bb an octave higher and REALLY like this!!! There are so many chord options here that I miss having in standard A6. I will need to play this over a longer period of time, but I could see this becoming my main tuning.

Thanks so much for this David!!

You're welcome, and I might have to try the G and Bb an octave up trick.

[BJ Burbach]

It is all up on Internet archive, thanks to Andy! Still there and working.
https://archive.org/details/LenThree03
BJ

[Mike Neer]

I have found that plain vanilla C6 tuning (E C A G E C A G, treble to bass) is the most versatile tuning granted you are adept at slanting.
The number of chords that I am able to get with little effort is staggering. IMO, not having a dominant 7 in the tuning makes more sense to me now for having a wider palette of chords, with 6 voicings of the major triad and 6 of the minor triad available with the straight bar. This opens up many possibilities. Dominant, diminished and augmented chords have more tension, so it is easier to get away with them being slightly dissonant. And for improvisation and single note playing, the layout of this tuning is perfect for me. The only caveat is that it is NOT a strum chord tuning. If you had a second neck, you could add a strum chord tuning like E13 there.

While I think A6 is a great tuning, for me, the bottom strings are useless because it is just too dark of a sound for chords. I prefer the range of the C6 tuning, but that is a personal preference. I don't need the 5th on top because I can very easily get that major triad (1-3-5) with a slant in C6.

[Pete Martin]

While I think A6 is a great tuning, for me, the bottom strings are useless because it is just too dark of a sound for chords.

I also found I was almost never using the lowest two strings of A6, thus tuning each a flat 9th higher made sense. But of course I’m playing Western Swing and mostly playing Boggs style chordal solos, almost no single note solos. I do that on the electric mandolin.

[Pete Martin]

It is all up on Internet archive, thanks to Andy! Still there and working.
https://archive.org/details/LenThree03
BJ

Big thank you Andy and BJ!