Steel guitar collections STINK!

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 3 Feb 2003 10:41 am

This question is not cut and dried. There are all sorts of variables, and no one answer that covers every situation.

Let's pretend that there is a person who started a small business, that grew beyond his or her wildest dreams and within 5 years was bought by a large corporation for half a billion dollars. This person is now relatively young and retired, with 500 million dollars to play with.

This person, who is NOT a musician, decides 2 things/ 1- to build a mansion, and 2- to decorate it entirely with what he or she considers the most beautiful object in the world- pedal steel guitars. (S)He sets out buying thousands of them to line all the walls of the mansion.

Let's say (s)he buys all new steels made by such companies as Carter, MSA and Sierra, who can turn them out in quantity. No problem. It only means that John and Ann, or Reece, or Tony at Sierra make more money. A win-win situation for all concerned.

But suppose this person decided that (s)he only wants Emmons push pulls, and proceeds to by every one that's for sale anywhere in the world. Then, frustrated about not having enough, he starts offering some really big bucks, say 50 or 100 thousand dollars to anybody that will sell him theirs. Pretty soon a lot of lucky players who bought these years ago will sell them at huge profits, and then the word will get out that an Emmons push pull is worth that kind of money.

WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE PLAYERS LIKE US? What happens to the average player who decides that (s)he really likes push pulls and wants to play one?

I consider instruments to be tools for the making of music, and the music is the end, rather than the instrument. I don't have a problem with people who use those tools collecting them, and I don't have a problem with collectors who buy new instruments that are currently being manufactured, because they are not depriving anybody of them, only causing the companies to make more.

But I do have a problem with collectors who don't play themselves who are buying up and hoarding irreplacable vintage instruments and keeping them out of the hands of the people like us for whom they were intended.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 3 Feb 2003 11:09 am

Mike, are you saying that it's OK for a musician to buy a rare and desirable instrument, play it for 5 minutes and then stuff it under his bed for the next 40 years ?
I don't get it. What's the difference ?
Out of circulation is out of circulation.
-John

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 3 Feb 2003 11:34 am

WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE PLAYERS LIKE US? What happens to the average player who decides that (s)he really likes push pulls and wants to play one?

First of all, Mike, your hyperbole about a mega-millionaire cornering the world on PP's is a totally unrealistic and ridiculous scenario. But let's take a big leap and say it exists in the real world.

Is anyone kept from owning a steel guitar? No. Is anyone kept from learning on a good instrument? No. Is anyone prevented from entering the workplace and making a living as a steel guitarist? No. All that person has to do is be satisfied with perfectly good and available substitution products.

Do we live in a world where everyone gets what they want? Do we live in a world where people have a right to get whatever they want? Do we live in a world where those who have non-essential luxuries are obligated to part with them so that other folks can indulge their fantasies?

Someone can choose to be happy with the options available to them and avail themselves of what they are ABLE to obtain. Or someone can choose to feel deprived because their fantasy remains unfulfilled, and resentful of those "pigs" who deny them what they want.

Of course, this same person could also say, "darn, I should have bought one when I had the chance." Or he could say, "well, I guess I'll have to search harder to find one... this collector couldn't have found ALL of them."

Or he could even say, "well heck, nobody is stopping me from being a steel player and playing gigs. There are plenty of great steel guitars available and I'm sure I can find one that will do the job for me."

Or he could point his finger and say... "There, that RICH guy! He's the one causing my discontent."

It's the "Blame Game" all over again. It's never anyone's personal responsibility, never anyone's regret they didn't act when they could have, or missed an opportunity. Or decided they wanted something after the marketplace made that something unavailable. It's whining about not having a toy that someone else on the schoolyard has.

We're not talking food, clothing, medicine and shelter here. We're talking about unique non-essential items for which there are plenty of available substitutes. I didn't hold to it when I couldn't afford the guitars I wanted, and I don't hold to it now that I can afford the guitars I want.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 3 Feb 2003 11:54 am

your hyperbole about a mega-millionaire cornering the world on PP's is a totally unrealistic and ridiculous scenario.

True, as far as PPs go, but not so unrealistic when it comes to DiAngelico guitars or Pre CBS Fenders. I've seen strats from the early 60's with $12-15,000 price tags, and 50's vintage Les Pauls that sold for over $20,000.

There are lots of decent affordable instruments floating around. Enough so that nobody who wants one need be deprived, but only a finite number of choice vintage pieces, and I say these should be in the hands of people who play them, or at least available at reasonable prices.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 3 Feb 2003 12:00 pm

Geez!!I'm glad you said that Herb. For a time there I was beginning to get a terrible complex, and feeling real bad for acquiring and owning a few instruments that I paid for with MY money. Too bad, I'm certain, because some of those instruments I have, I "punish" regularly to the disdain of my very understanding Wife and Granddaughter who lives with us, and I am on the very bottom of our soon to be 15 year old cat's "crap list"---see how I've cleaned up my language in your presence.

Oh well, I'm still a sovereign citizen, I bought 'em, I play 'em, and I'm keeping 'em. So there....Only my $.02 worth and with inflation going up shortly, you might should oughta take it.

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real
[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 04 February 2003 at 03:53 PM.]

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 3 Feb 2003 12:02 pm

The eloquent Mr Steiner again gives an accurate and respectable viewpoint-does anyone else find this thread inflammatory?

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 3 Feb 2003 12:10 pm

I guess I don't have a problem with all this - although I think the prices that people now pay for the same instruments I once bought new for $300 for are preposterous and I won't participate in that scene - no sour grapes - just logic.I do have a 1965 D-8 Stringmaster and a 1951 8 string Rick G-Deluxe but I got them cheap a few years ago and I play them a lot.But if Fender,G&L or Rickenbacker had a current similar model,I would be just as happy with it because generally I like shiney new instruments - always did.I liked them then and I like them now.And when it comes to pedal steels I'll always spend my money for the latest most advanced model - but that's just me.So everybody can help yourself to all the clunky old push/pulls and the $10,000 Bigsbys you can afford. Enjoy. -MJ-

Don McClellan · Post by **Don McClellan** » 3 Feb 2003 12:16 pm

Yes Paul. I do.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 3 Feb 2003 12:19 pm

But seriously, wouldn't a great guitarist sound great on a 60-90s Les Paul too? It is the collectability of these instruments that makes them desirable to players as well.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 3 Feb 2003 12:41 pm

Mike
This whole discussion is a pointless, philosophical exercise in what never will occur. You're just talking about a specific sub-category of Redistribution of the Wealth. Nothing you or Don are going to say or have said will make a collector give away something he's spent time, effort, and serious bucks obtaining. Whatever is done with these instruments will be the decision of the owner alone.

In fact, I'm sitting here wondering why I ever wasted time reading and replying to this stuff. What you're talking about us "agreeing to disagree" upon is like agreeing to disagree about whether or not we should return Europe to its pre-WW1 borders.

You're talking about a fantasy world in which the market decisions are made not by how much money someone is willing to pay for an instrument, but by how "deserving" the musician "wanting" the instrument is.

The former method, how much money someone is willing to pay, is much more quantifiable and just.

Let's say a philanthropist buys a bunch of old Strats and Les Pauls with the noble mission of distributing them to "deserving" musicians. What criteria will be used for determining "deserving?" Who will make the choices as to which musicians among the "deserving" will get one? Surely there will be those who disagree with his choices. That would be worth a call to an attorney, don't ya think? Not getting one, though you're "deserving" could be actionable.

Perhaps a committee could be formed. Or are there more old Strats and Les Pauls than there are "deserving" musicians? That would make it easier, right? Every "deserving" musician gets a guitar, and the surplus can be returned back to the collectors.

By another committee, of course.

I'm sure you could find an attorney who could make a case that owning a rare guitar is a constitutional right. That way, the government could confiscate the rare guitars and the redistribution of them could open up a world of federal employment. Of course, paid for by the tax money of those who just had their guitars confiscated.

Wait! What about the rare guns that just got confiscated? Hey, I'm a good shot, and I certainly "deserve" that original and unfired First Generation Colt Single Action Army 45. Who do I contact?

After the "guitars" issue is dealt with, we could start on "violins," before getting to the real meat of the problem, paintings by Rembrandt, Monet, Picasso, etc. et. al.

DAMN, this is a waste of time!!! But at least I made the decision myself to do this. I'm not blaming the Forum.

Incidentally, I've given away... for free... nice old instruments. I gave an old Rick bakelite to a fella who told me he needed something to play. I felt sorry for him. Then I heard he sold it. My, didn't THAT make me feel good. But hey, I made the decision to give it, and it's no longer mine after that.

Here's another story. A few years ago, I sold a 1952 Martin OOO-21 to a local singer, Dan Del Santo. He loved the guitar, and I sold it to him for $500, basically a give-away price. Hey, he wanted it. Of course, he bitched because there was a crack in the side he didn't notice when he first played it. I only asked that if he wanted to part with it, I get the first shot at it since I never really wanted to part with it in the first place.

A couple years later he got his ass in a crack again and said he needed to sell the guitar, and since he said he'd give me the first shot at it, he called me. He wanted $1500! I told him I'd give him $1250 for the horn and he took it. But not first reminding me that he could have gotten a lot more for it. I told him "gee Dan, that's exactly what I recall NOT SAYING TO YOU... but thanks for the great favor you've done me."

I still have the guitar. It's going in my casket with me.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 03 February 2003 at 12:49 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 3 Feb 2003 2:13 pm

One point(or two) that I've not yet seen mentioned--If "collectors" weren't buying up odl instruments, and driving up the prices, then a lot of folks like Bill Collings, Ivan Guernsey, Paul Reed Smith-you know, the custom builders-might never have gotten their feet(foot?) in the door. Imean, how many guys are out there building dreadnaught guitars to pre-war Martin specs, using Brazilian and Adirondack?
And second, somebody mentioned fiddles. If it weren't for museums(i.e."collectors")hanging on to old Strads and Guarneri's, then where would they be today? Many of these old instruments have been restored, and then loaned out, to players. Not honky-tonk players, but players.
I don't understand the Stratocaster fever that happened in the 80's, why should two planks screwed together be worth 5 figures? But have y'all seen the "Relic" series Fenders? Collect that!
I, like everybody else on this thread, was not given a single one of my instruments, except my dobro, which was a gift from my wife. And I'll buy whatever I want to, if it's legal, with my money! I worked for it!
Hey, y'all ever meet any animal collectors? How 'bout furniture? Let's invade all the furniture collectors, take their stuff, and give it to crackheads who don't have couches.
And woe be unto those who have more than one animal. We're coming to get your pets, and give 'em to people without pets. Where you wanna stop? I got a buddy, collects Clemson stuff. Why don't we take all HIS stuff, and give it to.....OK, so there'd be too much stuff left over.....

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 3 Feb 2003 2:16 pm

This is too deep for me.

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 03 February 2003 at 07:14 PM.]

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 3 Feb 2003 2:35 pm

Why is everybody getting so worked up over this? Nobody here is being attacked for having collections, In fact, my point is that people like Herb and Dan and Paul are the ones who should have fine instruments.

The situation exists. It's not going to change. It couldn't be changed even if we all agreed that it should be, and I never advocated changing it. I merely expressed my dislike of it.

Are we all so insecure that we cannot tolerate different points of view without getting all bent our of shape? Is it now required that we all think alike and have the same feelings?

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 3 Feb 2003 3:28 pm

Anxiety is harmful to your health. So is discussing this.

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 03 February 2003 at 07:17 PM.]

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 3 Feb 2003 3:41 pm

Mike, speaking for myself, I guess I'm just still unclear on what your point is.
When I was a teenager, all I wanted to do was play 5-string banjo. Once a kindly mentor let me play his 1952 Gibson Mastertone. I fell in love and swore if I was ever in a position to own one I would. That time arrived about 2 years ago, long after I'd quit playing banjo regularly. I bought it... I've played it 3 or 4 times and used it twice in the studio, but other than that, it's been under my bed. I wondered if someone like myself should even own it, as I just don't play it that much. Then I read your opinion about taking good instruments out of circulation a while ago, and felt a twinge of guilt.
Now you're telling me that you own 36 instruments, some you haven't gigged or recorded with... Thirty Six Instruments ?! Lord Love Us And Save Us Mrs. Davis !... How many can you play at once ? Do you ever feel a twinge of guilt about that?
I guess I've decided it's your "right" to do what you want... but.... geez... who's the hoarder here ?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I still have the guitar. It's going in my casket with me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Herb, it just so happens that I have a fine collection of caskets. I'd even be willing to part with one for ya when the time comes.
If you can beat me to it. Most of them have never seen a gig.

-John

Bob Blair · Post by **Bob Blair** » 3 Feb 2003 3:53 pm

I think one of the reasons that this thread has attracted some strong responses is because there aren't, nor are there likely to be, any obvious examples of the "Steel Guitar Midas" type. The people I know who can be described as collectors are also people who are actively involved with the instrument, and who promote the instrument in all kinds of ways. As such, they are very much deserving of our thanks. And they are certainly not doing anything that should attract criticism.

Collectors of fine instruments perform a real service in terms not only of preserving the instruments themselves, but also sharing information that they have gathered which helps us all understand and enjoy them.

I too shake my head in amazement about some of the prices one sees in "Vintage Guitars", but would it really be such a bad thing if our instrument could attract that kind of interest? If Mike's mythical Emmons collector was paying that kind of bread for the guitars, there would be a thriving "re-issue" market, maybe a (heaven forbid) "pre-distressed" model, and hordes of good imitations. Maybe a "Herb Steiner Signature Model Wraparound"! Our many fine builders would be better remunerated for their efforts, and still be able to market reasonably priced instruments. And some of our heroes might be able to sell their instruments and afford the sort of dignified retirement that a career as a professional musician rarely affords.

Would that it were so![This message was edited by Bob Blair on 03 February 2003 at 04:00 PM.]

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 3 Feb 2003 4:11 pm

Interesting thread.

I remember when Teles from the 50s and 60s were piled three deep at music stores on 48th St, NYC. No one wanted them.

Now the same beatup planks are desireable and unaffordable. Weird...

If there were no Tele collectors, they might still be piled there three deep, and we'd be lusting over whatever the high-price collectable was.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 3 Feb 2003 4:42 pm

Thank you Bob for that explanation.

Let me say this about what Bob said. Paul Warnik loves and collects Bigsby steel guitars, as does Mike Black, Chas Smith and a few others. I do too.

But, unlike the guys who just buy the guitars, Paul went to the Bigsby company and bought all of Paul Bigsby's original steel guitar parts inventory. With this inventory he supplied guys with old guitars the necessary parts to refurbish their old axes. He also realized that he had enough parts left over to create, with his partner Dave Peterson, around 8 or 9 replica Bigsby triple neck guitars. These guitars went to professional players, among them Ry Cooder, Lee Jeffries, Bill Dye, Billy Wilson, Junior Brown, and yours truly. Ry Cooder plays his on his new album, discussed elsewhere on the forum.

This friend of mine, through his love of the instrument, resurrected not only his own guitars and the guitars of others, but ADDED to the inventory of this type of guitar in the world. Did he make some bucks... I'm sure he did, but probably not as much as he should have made, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION. This is a person who doesn't just increase his bottom line by speculation on market values of instruments. This is someone who ADDS value to the world.

Thank God for guys who find the and restore the instruments we buy and play, like Mike Cass. Personally, I came upon Emmons guitar #8, serial number 1164008W, a wood neck D-10. It was a basket case, DOA, a bucket of parts and a trashed body. I bought the carcass for $500 from someone who thought it was "in excellent condition."

It's a long story but ultimately I sent it to Mike Cass who did a number on it and it's now almost showroom condition. And I now have way over 2 grand in this guitar. But, there is now a restored Emmons #8 where before there was a pile of junk.

We love these things, and we are not pigs.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 03 February 2003 at 04:55 PM.]

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 3 Feb 2003 5:01 pm

Musical instruments are not a public utility.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 3 Feb 2003 6:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This person is now relatively young and retired, with 500 million dollars to play with.

This person, who is NOT a musician,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The late Scott Chinery was all that....no need to pretend.

WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE PLAYERS LIKE US?

Lusting after the MSA Millenium....well, you said it yourself in past threads

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 3 Feb 2003 6:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Paul went to the Bigsby company and bought all of Paul Bigsby's original steel guitar parts inventory. With this inventory he supplied guys with old guitars the necessary parts to refurbish their old axes. ...This is someone who ADDS value to the world.
.....Thank God for guys who find the and restore the instruments we buy and play, like Mike Cass. We love these things, and we are not pigs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. This is not what I'm talking about.

I am talking about those collectors WHO DON'T PLAY, who are grabbing up vintage Fenders and Gibsons and Martin acoustics to use as some sort of trophies, who are driving the prices up and preventing people like us from obtaining them.

Herb, you DESERVE to have a fine collection of instruments. You're musicianship warrants it.

John, of the 36 instruments I own, I've gigged or recorded with 33 of them. And I only bought 2 of them about 2 weeks ago, and will be recording with both of them soon. that leaves only my 1957 National Res-0-Phonic unused, and I'm willing to sell it to somebody who will play it.

Do I need all these guitars? No. But my recordings are better because I have AND USE them. They all sound different, and give me a wide palette of colors to choose from when I record.

Also. While I have a few vintage guitars (most of which I bought years ago) the overwhelming majority of them are things that one can easily buy. I'm not depriving anybody of the chance to own a rare vintage Squire tele.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 3 Feb 2003 6:24 pm

Mike
There's no Scott Chinery here on this Forum. And Don McClellan posted this thread under "Steel Players." And he implied that we who collect steels are pigs.

Thanks for saying my musicianship entitles me to a collection. Actually, I think that my hard work and my making correct decisions entitles me to a collection.

Why? Because a friend of mine, a successful businessman who happens to not be a very good player, has some very nice instruments. And I'm not about to tell him he doesn't "deserve" the guitars he owns because someone who can speed-pick faster than he with more sophisticated notes "should" own his guitars. His playing might not be like some hotshot's, but he loves the guitars as much as he can, and if he can afford them, more power to him.

He's not a pig either, and if someone thinks he is, it speaks more about the opinionated one than it does of my friend.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 3 Feb 2003 6:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I'm not depriving anybody of the chance to own a rare vintage Squire tele.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ahh, yes, but you're introducing subjectivity to the argument, which will almost surely sink you.
I'm not even sure what a vintage squire tele is, but in my house it wouldn't be useful for much more than a boat anchor... more valuable perhaps if the guitarist was still attached.

In your subjective opinion, you use your instruments to a degree that warrants owning such a large number. Would everyone agree? Perhaps not. How would it be decided? As Herb suggested, by committee ?
The moment you put an instrument down, it's not being played. Whether it's not being played by a musician, or not being played by a non-musician is irrelevant.
Does an instrument have no value as a piece of visual art? I think it does... and can perhaps bring more joy to a greater number of people in a display case than the banjo under my bed, which somehow now becomes sanctified because it's being 'not played' by a musician rather than a non-musician.
I don't think the issue is as black and white as you see it.
Guilt, like charity, begins at home. And I still think you should feel terribly, terribly guilty.

(yes, I'm just teasing)
All the best,
-John

Don McClellan · Post by **Don McClellan** » 3 Feb 2003 7:46 pm

Herb, I did more than imply that collecters are pigs but I'd now like to take that back if possible. And, I should not have implied that all collections stink. I don't believe that. But I was never refering to people who buy, restore and resell guitars and I certainly never said anything about anyone's rights or anything about who is or isn't deserving. This whole thing is getting twistted out of perportion.

However the bottom line is, there are many people who are holding onto instruments of little or no collectable value that they do not play or need which could be bringing someone the same joy of playing that we all share if these instruments were in circulation instead of sitting for years under the bed or on the top shelf of the closet collecting dust.
Plus, I'll never be convinced that an instrument, as an inanimate object, is of more value than the music that could be made with it and the joy it can bring to the player and listeners.
I'd rather hear Jerry Byrd play one song on a $99 student model steel guitar than to stand and stare at a collection of priceless, rare steels.

Kenny Foy · Post by **Kenny Foy** » 3 Feb 2003 8:00 pm

This a problem the PSG world may not have to deal with rite now but a few years back when the Japanese economy was booming, and is still happening to some degree now, they were buyin up all the old Fenders, Gibsons and any guitar with a high value and age and sending them over seas to collectors over there. Now these guitars will probably not see the USA again during our lifetime. BUT with these collectors over here, atleast,they will post pictures of them on this Forum now and again. And I'm sure if I knew these collectors over here I could at least see there guitars. So I have no problem with these fellas over here collecting. If I had the money I would too.