Why so loud ?

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 8 Apr 2005 10:01 pm

What did you say?

Seriously, I totally agree. I play 95% of my gigs with a 30 watt tube amp, and it kind of cheeses me off when I have to play louder than that amp can cover. IMHO it's plenty loud.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 9 Apr 2005 5:39 am

This is a refreshing topic.

I have to disagree with many of you on this one. The stage volume doesn't matter. What matters is the balance of the bands stage volume.

I try to follow this well established rule; each band player should either play to the musician who uses the lowest stage volume or play as loud as the loudest musician on that stage. Going against that rule will create problems for the bands sound engineer. When everyone is playing softly and someone is not, This causes a mic'ing imbalance. The same is true when the bands rocking and someone brings an amp that can not match the stage volume level. In either situation feedback may be the result and an overall muddy sound for the band is the most likely result.

Instruments bleed over into other instruments microphones on stage. The only chance I and the engineer have at any isolation is to play loud enough to match the other instruments on stage. This helps prevent that loud player next to me from becoming even louder. Even though we use amps bands still have to understand how to balance their instruments mix on the stage before there is any hope of transfering that sound to the back of the hall.

It's all correct whether the bands energy is achieved through low or high volume levels. I've set in with horn bands that a session 500 couldn't keep up with. And played so soft that a session 500 couldn't open up enough to reach its warmth level.

NO AMP is perfect for every volume level.

The reason why head room is important is because some amps crap out at the top volume and a musician should always be able to decide whether he/she wants to play with a clean tone or an overdriven sound. I always try to take the right tools for the gig.

Paul

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 9 Apr 2005 7:41 am

Paul's voice of experience certainly matches my meager experience. If you can prevail on drummers, bassists and guitar screamers to keep the stage volume down, fine. But you have to be able to match them with your clean tone, or you might as well pack up and go home. I think it helps match the stage volume to place the guitar speakers (including the steeler's) near the back of the stage near the drums and bass amp. Then everyone hears the same thing on stage. Too many steelers put their speaker right next to themselves pointed up at their head instead of out across the stage. Sure they can hear themselves, but nobody else can. You have lost control of your level in the stage sound. If there is a sound man, he may or may not correct this problem. If the only steel he is familiar with is the whiney stuff way down in the commercial mix over his car radio, he wont.

I too enjoyed hearing Bill Stafford's quiet but powerful playing when I visited him in Mississippi a couple of weeks ago. That level would be fine in some of the folky/singer-songwriter venues I play, but would not get past the front of the stage in the rock clubs, most of which don't mike the guitar amps.

Also, I disagree with the common assumption that rockers play loud to cover lack of talent and skill. It doesn't cover anything up, and instead exposes it all. It is very difficult and requires tremendous confidence to play well loud. Your flaws are blaring. I find it much more difficult to play loud than to play quietly and mask my uncertainties - in fact, that is a problem myself and many amateurish steelers have.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 9 Apr 2005 8:16 am

I understand balancing with the other instruments on stage but what happens if there is a singer and everbody still wants to blast away ? If players can't or won't balance to the vocalist while on stage then they have problems.
If you can't hear the vocals than what the heck are you supposed to play ?

Being in NYC my experience might be different than some. Most any players worth a crap around here need to deal with jazz stage levels. That tends to be pretty quiet for the most part. Also most guys that gig for a living around NYC carry as little and light gear as possible. The club date bass players are my favorite. They carry amps about the size and weight of a toaster !

------------------
Bob
intonation help

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 9 Apr 2005 8:50 am

I think a lot of what drives this discussion is the idea of 'appropriate volume', or "When in Rome ... ". A lot of us play in small clubs, and have had to routinely endure ear-splitting volumes from other players who treat the venue as if it were a stadium. Sound levels drop off roughly as the square of distance, so of course different situations require different technology. When playing on a large stage or outside (a lot of my experience with that is on guitar, not steel), a very loud amp/band does not split my ears or make it hard to hear. In a small club, it just makes it miserable, and the notion of 'balance' is out the window. I believe every room has a volume limit, beyond which the reflections are so strong that everything just gets cluttered. Of course, many small club PAs cannot keep up with a real loud band, so the singer gets drowned out. Again, "When in Rome ... ".

The frustration here by many, I suspect, is that some musicians can't tell the difference, or just want cacophony. Many are just so ingrained to extreme volumes that they just shrug their shoulders, bring -30dB ear inserts, and crank it up without regard to what it sounds like. Believe me, this is not at all unheard of in my experience.

David, I also agree that loud and clear brings mistakes to the front, but loud, distorted, and heavily effected (think loud distorted guitar with a lot of effects) often gets jumbled up and hidden. I'm not always against this, but it's often overused, IMO.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 9 Apr 2005 9:03 am

Although everyone doesn't have a great monitor engineer and well designed in-ear monitors at their disposal, I can tell you, that solves 90% of the problems. It blocks out most of the stage volume and replaces it with exactly what you want to hear. In my case, I go for everything but drums plus about 2x my usual volume. That way, I always know exactly what's going to the FOH. Works well for me, but I'm spoiled whenever I have to play a small club and play 'fill wars' all night long with some hot shot guitar player.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ken Thompson · Post by **Ken Thompson** » 9 Apr 2005 10:48 am

Thanks to all of you that sent emails and forwarded the thread to me. We play through a very good system but occassoinally after be quite "pursuasive" to our guitar player to turn down. He now got to hear it from all of you instead of just me. Thanks.

This Forum continues to be a great source of learning, friendship, kinship and encouragement. God bless.
Ken

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 9 Apr 2005 1:10 pm

I guess that I've been lucky in one sense. The bands that I've played in always had very good sound systems, everything miked, and no need to play loudly. But I'm deaf as a stump! Why? Small stages. Always had the ride symbol right behind my head. I was so happy when the drummer got an electronic kit! But it was already too late for me. All my high-end hearing is gone. I can no longer understand women's voices, but, so what! JB

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 9 Apr 2005 1:39 pm

If you can't hear the vocals than what the heck are you supposed to play ?

I dunno...

The steel part...?

EJL

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 9 Apr 2005 3:24 pm

If you can't hear the vocals than what the heck are you supposed to play ?

Depends on how much the gig pays.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Apr 2005 12:11 pm

If you can't hear the vocals than what the heck are you supposed to play ?

Play whatever you feel ike playing...that's what most bassmen, drummers, and lead guitarists will be doing!

It's a losing game. First, they always mike the drums (arguably, already the loudest instrument on the planet). Then the lead guitarist...well, he just has to play loud (gotta get the amp into distortion for that "hot sound", ya' know). Then, there's the (gotta "feel the throb and pop") bassman. If his pantlegs ain't flappin' like a sailor's on a carrier deck, he doesn't think he's loud enough.

Reason with 'em? You'd have more luck tryin' to do away with beer at a NASCAR track.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 10 Apr 2005 2:01 pm

Another real key factor that directly relates to how loud a player gets is how far they sit from their amp. Proximity effect is a tremendous determining factor. I've seen guys with their NV400 sitting 8' behind them and the little yellow limiter light is blinking on all night long, just blasting. Then you can see a guy like Tom Brumley with just a 45watt Fender tube amp sitting only 2' behind him and he never gets close to running out of power.

I found this when I was playing guitar a lot, and in a loud 2-drummer band. I used either a Marshall Studio 15 (probably about 20 watts) or a Fender Deluxe Reverb which was about 22 watts. I found that if I stood just a couple of feet in front of the amp with it at belly height so I could feel the body of the sound, I had all the power I needed. If I had to put the amp 4 or more feet behind me, it wasn't nearly loud enough. Why seek more power when all you need is to be closer to the amp? They can always mic the amp right?

Brad Sarno
www.steelguitarblackbox.com

jim milewski · Post by **jim milewski** » 10 Apr 2005 3:13 pm

ya, amp placement is so important, for me it's on a chair near me, loud volume deletes the option for "dynamics", like how do you build up to the chorus when everything is already blasting, as mentioned the drummer and bass player just about set the pace for good or bad volume control. It also seems to me if you have to explain all this to other guys in the band it isn't going to amount to much or fix the problem anyway

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 10 Apr 2005 4:15 pm

Yep, amp placement is important. As someone already mentioned, the offensive treble tones are very directional. One of our favorite sayings to guitar players is is, "Hey, why is your amp right behind you on the floor pointed straight ahead? Do you have ears in your ankles?"

Of course, Leo Fender recognized this early with his 'tilt-legs' on Twin/Pro Reverbs. I wish they were used more widely. I've added them to SF Deluxe Reverbs in the past.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 10 Apr 2005 4:51 pm

Yea Dave. The tilt legs are the best way to get a soundguy to put you in the house mix. Point that "beam" at the ceiling instead of at the sound booth. But don't point the beam at your head either. That's one of the quickest roads to tinnitus.

Brad Sarno

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 11 Apr 2005 9:56 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
what would you do if your fellow musicians in the audience said
"We can't hear the steel!!"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tony, you can use my line:
"Perhaps you can't see the forest for the trees."

Then you turn and grin at the lead guitarist and say "Right, Trees ?"

-John [This message was edited by John Steele on 11 April 2005 at 10:57 AM.]

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 11 Apr 2005 10:20 am

I saw Mick Fleetwood (of Fleetwood Mac)today on the morning news. It seems that he is now involved with some sort of promotion to get people to learn to protect their hearing, which is sponsored by Everready Battery Co.(?)

The host of the news show asked Mick, "well, what advice can you give to people (or something like that)?" Mick responded with something like, "well I now always wear ear plugs and I advise those in the audience to do the same."

It didn't take me too long to see the rediculousness of such a situation -- all the members of the band, the stage crew, the sound man, the entire audience -- everybody wearing ear plugs so that the incredibly loud music wouldn't hurt their ears.

Why not simply turn down the volume? [This message was edited by Tom Olson on 11 April 2005 at 11:20 AM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 11 Apr 2005 10:47 am

Hey, man, like, that wouldn't be rock 'n roll, man. Man, like, if I can't feel it pounding in, like, my chest and, like, parting my hair, like, it's not, like, cool, man, ya' dig?

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 11 Apr 2005 1:45 pm

Dave is right. You gotta feel the impact of the music when you play. It's part of the energy of music. What I found is that you CAN feel the power and impact at lower volumes with the amp placed close enough and aimed correctly. I also played many gigs, guitar or steel, with foam earplugs in. It took me 2 years to get used to it and also not play loud (which is the tendency with plugs). I'd soundcheck (or play the first 2 songs of the set) without plugs to get the volume and band mix right and then put them in. Back in '94 my hearing and tinnitus had gotten pretty bad. I finally listened to guys like Pete Townshend, Metallica, and others who had learned the hard way about hearing damage and I stocked up on foam earplugs. I wore them to any live concert or show, I wore them on any loud gig I played, I wore them on long roadtrips, I wore them at fireworks displays, I'd wear them for 20 minutes before bed, etc. My hearing is worlds better today. My hearing tests excellent again and my tinnitus is barely noticeable. Contrary to what some have said, hearing does repair and heal if you change your habits. I'd rather play gigs where I don't need them, but man it's a great feeling at the end of the night when you pull out the plugs and you can hear again with crystal clarity. Once you get used to using earplugs, you find that they actually filter out the cymbal wash and other loud noisy stuff and help you to hear right thru to the fundamentals of the music and have good control over volume and dynamics. It's less exciting sounding, but it's SOOOO worth it to preserve and protect your hearing. I know way too many 40+ rockers who have had to totally give up on playing and listening to music forever because of the pain (hyper-acusis) and tinnitus they caused. Foam earplugs have been a life saver for me. I like the 30db Hear-O's, flesh colored so nobody knows you've got them in. Guitar Center sells these.

Brad

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 11 Apr 2005 3:00 pm

The silly stuttering explanation of "Why So Loud" I gave above {which may have sounded like a parody - I only wish it was

} is, as verbatim as I can remember it, the actual explanation I got from a band I was doing sound for that literally drove every single person out of the club in about 10 minutes. Their explanation just cracked me up, and they really didn't understand why everybody left. They might be a good, powerful band in a large venue, but not at that volume in a small club.

Like Brad, I also like music to have power and there are times it can justifiably get a little out of control. That is rock 'n' roll.

So I also carry around foam earplugs in case. 30 dB seems to do the trick nicely. But I still say it's just so much better to really work hard to keep the volume under control. Power and extreme volume are not necessarily synonymous. That said, ditto to everything Brad said. My hearing is quite a bit better than it was 5 years ago, and I'm at the age where it's supposed to be going the other way.

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 12 Apr 2005 8:03 am

On a loud stage in a small place, I hate the fact that I have to play louder because I'm sitting right next to the drum kit, and can barely hear my own amp... sitting on the floor behind me, where it's really difficult to gauge how much the people up front are getting completely blown out...

Add to that a lead guitar player, blowing out the only other ear I have to work with, and it's just a frustrating process.

Typically, the singer is going to be thrown back out of monitors, so I can hear them well enough, though I can understand the phenomenon to which Bob is referring.

Paul Honeycutt · Post by **Paul Honeycutt** » 14 Apr 2005 11:20 am

I've been a sound guy and a player for many years. The older I get, the smaller my amp. I'm using a Mesa Studio .22+ with an old Altec speaker for most of my gigs. If that isn't enough, I'll use an extention cab to cover the stage. I'm tired of loud music.

Back in the '70's I read an article in Mix Magazine about the Eagles. At the time all the guitar players were using Tweed Deluxe and BF Deluxe amps playing huge stadiums. The tech said it was so the vocals could be heard and that the quietest place in the venue was on stage. I think we could all learn a lot from that.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 14 Apr 2005 1:03 pm

we recently played a set where everyone was seated and just listening. the front row was , well, directly in front of the bandstand.

Now our band plays on the louder side rather than the softer side, the tunes carry a lot of meter and the young Tele player rips at a pretty loud level, but it sounds good. I generally stay in the moderate background unless it's solo time, then it's cranked a bit. There certainly is imited clash between the Tele and the Steel...an oddity for sure...

AT this gig we had many comments of how good the sound was, not excessively loud but certainly lively.

An older gentleman approached me later on and told me he enjoyed our set but he thought the Steel was to loud. I asked him where he was sitting in the room and and he told me the first row directly in front of my amp.(N400)

I apologized to him and told him that the next time I would save him a seat in the 4th row

Did you ever play a Wedding in a large hall and the Head table or perhaps the FAMILY table where Gramma + Grandpa were seated was pretty much right in front of the bandstand ?

Go ahead and suggest to me how that works at any volume other than off ... you are now playing for the small 10 foot space between the band and the first table..forget about the other 300 people..

there is no definitive answer..volume is subjective. If you are playing Lead Guitar with the small Fender amp and you can't fill the room with equal levels with the band then
you are not playing Loud enough. If you bring a Marshall Stack and the rest of the band has small Fender Champ amps..well thats a problem too...

play the gig, bring whats required for the gig..and be aware...but you will never please everyone in the room..ever....

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 15 April 2005 at 04:22 AM.]

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 14 Apr 2005 4:59 pm

It's so easy for people to blame hard rock music and musicians for excessive volume. I have heard just as many country and blues bands that were way to loud for their own good. Yet these same pickers on this forum will turn around and insist that they absolutely have to have 400 watts of Peavey behind them. When you do this you are now becoming part of the problem.

Just because you personally don't like a particular style of music is no reason to blame all of the worlds' problems on it. It is not the style of music any more than it is the instruments used; it's the people playing the music and instruments that determines the outcome.

If anything, rock music has also in a roundabout way contributed to trying to tame the excessive volumes. How? If it weren't for rockers trying to get that cranked sound in a bedroom, we probably would not have master volume controls, power/speaker attenuators, and about 50 bazillion different flavors of distortion/fuzz/overdrive pedals on the market. With all of these tools at our disposal, there is no reason for any band playing any style of music to be out of control.

I love old Buck, have been to the Crystal Palace, the TSGA show and the ISGC. I also love Van Halen, ZZ Top, Deep Purple, Satriani, Vai and on and on. I no longer play in bands. Partly because of other commitments. Partly because of all of the personality issues involved, one of which is other guys just playing too darn loud. I have been in a bar and have tried talking to friends or women, only ending up having to yell because the band was so loud. I know what it's like when someone puts me in that situation; why in the heck would I turn around and do it to them if I'm the one on stage?

Despite my love for rock and roll, if I ever play in a band again all I'm taking is my Princeton Reverb. If that's not loud enough.......see ya around guys.

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Artie McEwan

Paul Honeycutt · Post by **Paul Honeycutt** » 20 Apr 2005 9:03 am

And in any event, Grandma will sit right in front of the PA speakers and complain about the volume all night.