Steel guitar collections STINK!

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 5 Feb 2003 6:35 pm

Mike, May I point out to you, that YOU told me you wanted more than TWICE the value of that old Gretsch, due to its "collector's value?" And that, even though you had had numerous renovations done to it, you still considered it a collector's item?
Don't get me wrong, if I had a '59 Les Paul, and wanted single coils on it, I'd mount 'em with duct tape, so go ahead and remodel your guitar. But don't try to sell it to me at an inflated "collector's item" price, then get on here complaining about collectors. Make up your mind, dude! Andsell the guitar somewhere else, I can't afford it.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 5 Feb 2003 8:34 pm

Steve, I am asking for EXACTLY the amount of money I have invested in the Gretsch.

What is your problem?

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 5 Feb 2003 10:03 pm

Mike, I have no problem, other than liberal court systems, inadequate school systems, Bill O'Reilly, Larry King, people who think the world owes them something, whiners, folks who fail to be thankful, the sorry state of the Democratic party, and fried food. Other than that, I'm OK. You?

Dave Horch · Post by **Dave Horch** » 5 Feb 2003 10:51 pm

I'm with Mike Perlowin in this case.

But if anyone wants a 1962 Gibson Medoly Maker (ser# 46257), I'll glady let mine go for... Hmm... $120,000 US. Good condition with original case. Is this Ebay.com?

I don't "hoard" this guitar. It some how is my first choice for rock'n'roll leads when recording.

Aside to Jody: I have a Fender bass fenatic friend (age ~58) who is trying to date an early bass he has (he is the original owner). Ser#64. It looks like a tele bass, but he swears it's an early p-pass. Any clues? The current Fender site couldn't date it. Email me?

(...Let 'em go before you die... But wait until the very end?)

Out... Best to all, -Dave

George McLellan · Post by **George McLellan** » 6 Feb 2003 3:17 am

FWIW, I sold my original Gretsch 6120 back in 65, but bought a RI about five years ago, it's a much better guitar than the original was and no bloated price tag. I'm finding that RI's are as good and sometimes better than originals and why get your knickers in a knot over paying ridiculous prices???????

JMHO.

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SUAS U' PHIOB
Geo

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 6 Feb 2003 7:36 am

A side effect of this hoarding is that the prices of the few remaining vintage instruments as been artificially jacked up

The reason the instruments are collected/hoarded is because they already were going up substantially in price, and the wealthy collectors jumped in. It's the MUSICIANS who initially drove the price up by willingly paying more (understandably) for certain instruments, and it's the musicians who apparently didn't share your views about how important it was to keep these instruments circulating, so they WILLINGLY kept selling them for more and more money. The wealthy jump in ONLY after the collectible has increased in value, and only when there are people willing to sell the collectible (which then drives the prices further up). If you are going to take a position on this subject, then you need to understand these dynamcics (even if you don't like them). The musicians caused all this to happen. The wealthy collectors are just looking for somtething to buy, and the musicians are happy to oblige at higher and higher prices. Not politically correct, but these are the facts. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 06 February 2003 at 08:10 AM.]

Ray Jenkins · Post by **Ray Jenkins** » 6 Feb 2003 8:04 am

Selling 1966 Black Mica Emmons P/P Ser#1143D
4X8 Asking only $63,211.23 you pay shipping.(uh-oh I put new strings on it. I hope this didn't ruin the value).
Ray

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 6 Feb 2003 8:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The availability of vintage guitars at reasonable prices did not put anybody out of business. To suggest that if they were still available at these prices, this would somehow would prevent the manufacture of new guitars is totally absurd.

I can't even begin to guess at the logic behind such a ridiculous assertion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure you can't. My logic was simple. In a socialist or communist society there is no motiviation to be innovative and produce quality products. Is that more to the point?

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 6 Feb 2003 9:27 am

In a socialist or communist society there is no motiviation to be innovative and produce quality products.

Ron, are you seriously suggesting that there is a connection between wanting to pay reasonable prices for vintage guitars and communism?

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 6 Feb 2003 10:06 am

Communism....everbody works in a government owned factory producing vintage guitars to be distributed to the masses. Waiting list for strings is 5 years.

Socialism....everybody works in factories owned by the "people" producing vintage guitars for the people. Nobody can afford one. "Power to the Pick Up."

Capitalism....everybody can own whatever vintage guitar they want and can afford. Nobody is happy with what thay have, only with what other people have.

Voyeurism....looking at other people's vintage guitars is more desirable than actually owning them.

Antagonism....this thread

[This message was edited by HowardR on 06 February 2003 at 09:08 PM.]

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 6 Feb 2003 10:28 am

No, Mike. As Howard so adroitly pointed out, I'm saying there is a connection between those other forms of government and your wanting to arbitrarily dictate what constitutes a "reasonable" price. The market gets to determine price in a free-market economy like most of us live under.

(It's great that this is a truly international forum. I'll try harder not to state things as if the U.S. is the center of the universe.)

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HagFan

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 6 Feb 2003 11:41 am

Mike Perlowin wrote

I've heard on one banjo collection with over 5,000 pieces...

What a wonderful service that collector is performing, taking all of those banjos out of circulation! (Unless it's one banjo broken into 5,000 pieces, which would be okay, too.

)

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic, Line6 Variax (coming soon)

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 6 Feb 2003 11:51 am

Meanwhile, as we bicker over this.....
http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/10U-3161.htm

Ray Jenkins · Post by **Ray Jenkins** » 6 Feb 2003 11:59 am

What a wonderful service that collector is performing, taking all of those banjos out of circulation! (Unless it's one banjo broken into 5,000 pieces, which would be okay, too. )

Gotta go with you on that one b0b

Wanna buy my Emmons?
Ray www.swsteelguitar.com

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 6 Feb 2003 12:20 pm

Mike,
Communism is a system by which private property is elimated and goods are owned in common and distributed as needed.
Don't be confused by how some nations have adapted this principle. The theory is bigger and older than any one country.
I agree with Ron. I also understood you to be advocating a system whereby collectors' stashes of instruments should be made available to musicians who "need" them.
I don't agree with that concept. I like my stuff.
Chris Lucker[This message was edited by Chris Lucker on 06 February 2003 at 12:21 PM.]

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 6 Feb 2003 1:18 pm

Does scarcity create collectability, or does collectability create scarcity? (And how does one spell "collectability?")

Folks, you'll KNOW things are getting serious when the Antiques Road Show showcases a PSG for the first time....

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 6 Feb 2003 2:16 pm

I also understood you to be advocating a system whereby collectors' stashes of instruments should be made available to musicians who "need" them.

I never said that Chris, and I don't know where you got the idea that I did. All I said was that I don't like the fact that many of these instruments are going to people who don't play them, and their prices have been artificially jacked up to the point where they are unobtainable.

I never advocated ANYTHING. I merely expressed my displeasure at the situation as it exists. Any other interpretation of anything I've written is incorrect.

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 6 Feb 2003 2:47 pm

Jeff is right in the sense that musicians are responsible for the increase in value of vintage guitars. All a musician has to do is drool over the same type of guitar his hero played, and when enough musicians want that guitar it becomes all the more valuable. They will pay just about anything to have that flame top Gibson Les Paul Standard that Mike Bloomfield played or that 1957 Fender Stratocaster that Eric Clapton played. So these instruments are collectable.

Fortunately, guitar manufacturers have the technology to make replicas of those vintage masterpieces and sell them for a fraction of the cost of the originals. For me, a Korean made Epiphone Les Paul Standard or Mexican made Fender Stratocaster would suffice. I don't need the exact same type of guitar to want to play like my heroes.

As far my steel is concerned, it's a model and year that is not particularly sought after. I have no steel playing heroes, so I was not after a vintage model that the legends of PSG played. I didn't even know that some steels were collectable until I discovered the SGF.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 6 Feb 2003 2:58 pm

Mike Perlowin wrote

…I object to non-musicians who are buying up all the vintage Fenders and Gibsons and other great guitars to put in display cases, and driving up the prices to the point where working musicians can't afford them.

… But I do have a problem with collectors who don't play themselves who are buying up and hoarding irreplacable vintage instruments and keeping them out of the hands of the people like us for whom they were intended.

… There are lots of decent affordable instruments floating around. Enough so that nobody who wants one need be deprived, but only a finite number of choice vintage pieces, and I say these should be in the hands of people who play them, or at least available at reasonable prices.

… I am talking about those collectors WHO DON'T PLAY, who are grabbing up vintage Fenders and Gibsons and Martin acoustics to use as some sort of trophies, who are driving the prices up and preventing people like us from obtaining them.

Chris’ summary seems pretty much right on.

Perhaps we misunderstood.

Mike, I’m just jerking your chain on this. Perhaps we’ll experience an analogy to the tech bubble in vintage guitars. In the mean time you're guilty of a certain amount of wishful thinking.

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HagFan

[This message was edited by Ron Page on 06 February 2003 at 05:43 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 Feb 2003 5:05 pm

Mike, the "unaltered" obsession of collectors can sometimes work to the musician's advantage. I lucked into a vintage but altered 1968 (what I great year that was) Gibson J50 (at Elderly) that I got for about 20% of what the unaltered collectors versions were going for. The alterations were that the too heavy adjustable bridge had been converted to a standard bridge, the cheap original tuners with small plastic keys had been replaced with Deluxe tuners with big metal keys, it had a nice under-the-nut transducer plus inside-the-body mic with preamp and controls inserted into the side, and it had been refretted. All of this made it sound and play much better, and also made it uncollectible, so I could afford it.

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 6 Feb 2003 9:06 pm

This thread is getting better!

Oh, and Dave Doggett, that's enough about Gibson J-50 acoustic guitars! I bought one under almost exactly the same circumstances 25 years ago and it's a wonderful instrument with a somewhat diminished resale value but I don't really care. I'm keeping mine.

The same forces that are driving up the value of old instruments are in play for us poor working musicians (well, I'm part-time). It's called supply and demand. It behooves all of us to understand or at least pay attention.

Tell me why Brittney Spears, Eminem and some of the "new music" is popular and sells multi-platinum when guys like Doug Jernigan, Buddy Emmons, Brent Mason and countless others sell modest numbers? Is it fair? We're talking huge differences in the amount of musical talent here, yet these young moderns call the shots. Similar to the sick state of talk show radio and the conglomerates that decide what mass entertainment is available--I'm talkin' Gaylord and Clear Channel, et al.

I'm not offering a solution folks, just an observation. I do some things equalize out in time. That Japanese instrument hoarder will have to sell some time. Who knows, there may be an economic upheaval underway now that may result in certain parties having to unload these treasures.

I still maintain, if it's great sounding, playable instruments you want, there are millions available right now at reasonable prices. You may not get the correct vintage, the perfect antiqued finish and the cache of a wonderful vintage instrument that lived through the last World War or Roger Miller tour.

All the guitar companies are issuing re-issues of practically everything. Then there are the new models that will be discontinued soon, better snap those up if it's an investment you're wanting!

Back to pedal steels: Newer is better. OK, there, I said it. Get over it. So maybe the perfect correct vintage push-pull, or Sho-Bud Pro II has that "unique sound," guess what? Everything has a unique sound. OK, the '68 black, bolt on, wood neck, sticker decal version has a vibe unlike no other. Fine. I'm sure it does. I don't disagree. Fine old instruments will always have a special quality that will always be mysterious and wonderful.
Check out the price of vintage Italian violins of certian lineage.

Some of us may get a shot at some fine piece some day and I hope I'm one of them. I really can't slam those who collect. It's likely that collectors/hoarders don't really play so for us who can play, we have something they'll never have. I'd say that's a sort of cosmic justice. --JR

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 7 Feb 2003 6:11 am

Well said, John!

Tony Harris · Post by **Tony Harris** » 7 Feb 2003 6:46 am

If you want a Fender or Squier Strat, you can buy them at a whole range of prices, new or used. If it's a Les Paul you're after, Gibson make a whole range, or you could buy a copy (I have a Hamer Slammer which was cheap, looks fabulous, and after some tweaking, plays like a dream). My instruments are for playing, not storing. But if you want a lap steel, that's not so easy to find - especially here in England, without paying a 'vintage'price. I came across a Fender Deluxe Six on legs yesterday, which was extra expensive because it was 50's. Of course this meant that the cover plate had been lost, the pots were crackly, paint had chipped off and been retouched. I couldn't justify paying the asking price - had to run away....

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 7 Feb 2003 8:20 am

Don, ironically, your (this) thread is a collection unto itself. You have managed to collect the largest amount of individual forum members to respond to your topic.

I don't recall a thread of this magnatude. Well, perhaps Bill Hankey's bent string lucky seven marathon.

Anyhow, you have more forumites than you really need. Time to sell us off cheap, or donate us to someone who is in need.

Chuckie Acevedo · Post by **Chuckie Acevedo** » 11 Feb 2003 7:30 pm

I can see it now "Howards Antique Road Show", complete with Semi-trailers and roll-up sides....oh God what a sight that would be.

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Chuckieboy
Sho-Bud Prolll
Fenders Deluxe6,CD8 C3,D10