Against the Grain

Melinda Dauley · Post by **Melinda Dauley** » 13 Feb 2003 10:42 am

Just got done looking at my post in electronics about amplifiers. If you like, please go take a look. Some of you will be horrified I am sure.

After reading someone's honest truth, and someone else's honest opinion in the electronics forum, I feel like I know where I am at in the steel world now.

I am in the same place that I am in the regular guitar world and the hot rod car world. I am not the normal. I like old beat up cars (rat rods). I like old gretsch guitars and old tube amps. (My Gretsch switch is already going out although it's only 4 years old.) I know both are inconvienient and a pain in the butt. For some reasons, my tastes develop into whatever will give me the most problems in life. But the thing is that all these different things are SO COOL.

I am looking forward to all the problems my S-8 Fender 1000 will give me.
Laughing,
Melinda Dauley

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Just remember: Bi-valves can't play steel. And if they ask, just say no.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 Feb 2003 10:56 am

You're right, of course.
But please realize that many of us play older instruments and many of us prefer tube amps. The demand for Emmons push-pull guitars has grown substantially and those of us who could afford one would love a Bigsby. Same goes for old Buds and ZBs -- if they sound right we'll tolerate Neanderthal mechanics, realizing that all guitars have assets and liabilities.

BTW, I love old Gretsch guitars myself -- and old Standel amps too.

HOWEVER, I believe that the point was more aimed at the limitations an 8 string pedal steel with anything other than the standard E9 tuning imposes on learning the instrument. If that Fender sounds like you want it to sound and has the changes that let you express yourself musically through it, MORE POWER TO YOU. They are great guitars with a cool vintage sound. Learn some Ralph Mooney licks and go to town. You may want to investigate his tuning.

Best of luck to you.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 13 Feb 2003 11:08 am

Melinda,
I own 4 Peavey amps, 76' Session 400,
86' Nashville 400, 8? Bandit 112, and last but not least an Envoy 110. They all sound different to me and they all sound good to me. Each one has it's own musical voice.
I also own a 62 Standel Pro Custom with the 1/2 & 1/2 transistor/tube set-up with a 15' JBL D-130. It has a diffrent voice too.
My point is I own these amps because "I" like the way they sound and it sounds like you have made the same realization about what gear to use, if you like it, thats all that matters!
JE:-)>
PS: 75Emmons D-10 pp & 2002 SD-10 Fessenden cause "I" like them.

Martin Abend · Post by **Martin Abend** » 13 Feb 2003 11:41 am

Oops,

I just was about to write how much I hate BAD RELIGION, but... that's not the topic here. Puh!

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martin abend Pedal-Steel in Germany
s-10 sierra crown gearless 3 x4 | Regal RD45 | fender hotrod deluxe

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 13 Feb 2003 1:59 pm

Hey Melinda, first let me tell you how much I've been enjoying your posts.

I know both are inconvienient and a pain in the butt. For some reasons, my tastes develop into whatever will give me the most problems in life. But the thing is that all these different things are SO COOL.

And they have a very specific sound and a vibe that isn't easy to duplicate, or can't be duplicated. If you are into Fender amps, and money isn't an issue, you might try out a Pro from the '50s with the D-130F, also the Gibsons from the '50s will sound good with your guitar. My personal favorites are the tube Standels with Altec speakers (418, 421). Of course, these things aren't cheap and they require maintenance.

At the NAMM show, last month, I picked up THD Bi-Valve, which is just a head and I have a collection of speaker cabinets to choose from. So last night I played it out in a small club for the first time. It was warm with a little bite, put some "whiskers" on the sound and it had enough power to keep up.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 13 Feb 2003 2:26 pm

Hey Melinda.you are not against the grain..not at all.

I prefer old Telecasters but not the old Telecaster prices so I play a 1989 Telecaster whicg is a 52 Re-issue nad quite honestly , this is the best Tele' I have ever owned.
I played Gretches and Gibsons ..they are all fine Instruments and if they fit your mold then their you go !

You mentioned in your Electronics post about Peaveys and why folks use them over the older amps. Peavey as you know has been the only real brand that has made dedicated Steel amps and has several generations. Does that mean that Fender and others are not good, no, of course not , but what it does mean is that for the bandstand scenario which is what most of us are dealing with the Peaveys are proven in reliablity , tone and the required headroom to cut a gig with both the C6 tuning and the E 9th tuning. Many of the players on this forum have probably played thur more amps in their careers than many music stores currently have on display.

Your Fender 1000 is a fine axe, play it in good health but I think the only point being made by the forum members is that there has been so much advancement of phrasing and tunings based on the 10 string E9th tuning with extended Knee levers that you are limiting your playing/learning with an older steel. Kinda like driving a 1970 Winston Cup car ina a 2003 race, yes you can get around the track, but probably not in front of anyone.

Many of todays licks and phrases cannot be played on an 8 string Steel with 1 knee lever. I think thats the only point that was being pressed.

Given that,,go for it

have fun

tp

oh yeh..I do play Steel thru a Nashville 1000
and a Fender Deluxe tube amp with the Telecaster. IF I had a very small gig I would also use the Deluxe for the Steel.[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 13 February 2003 at 03:07 PM.]

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 13 Feb 2003 2:50 pm

Milinda,
I too enjoy reading your posts as you persue this adventure.

It's true you have to find your own "voice" and gear is a very subjective matter. Anyone that claims any one brand is right for everyone is just plain wrong.

However, you must also have gear that will not fight you. Learning this instrument is not easy, and you should not be distracted by mechnical problems or other issues.

I think the posts advising you to learn on a more modern instrument were given for that reason. I agree with them.

You appear to be asking all the right questions, and evaluating advice as it pertains to you. I suspect you'll do fine.

Have you determined what sound you are after? Are there any artists whose sound you like, or are you looking for a unique sound?
"The forest would be a dull place if all the birds sounded alike"

Kevin Macneil Brown · Post by **Kevin Macneil Brown** » 13 Feb 2003 2:50 pm

I hear you, Melinda.. seems like the sound is in your head and heart and soul, and the guitars and amps and effects or whatever are ways to get it out there.
Sometimes using the tools we've got-and feel good about- leads to new inspirations and unique musical expressions.
I've got plenty of respect for great players who do things the "right" way, who play the "right" instruments; But there are other, infinite ways to bring music alive....

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 13 Feb 2003 3:22 pm

Melinda,
One more thing I forgot to say before...
if you put the top 8 strings of the 'modern' E9th tuning on your Fender, maybe add 1 or 2 knee levers, you'll be able to play 90% of anything you hear on a record out of Nashville. Heck, it took me 2 or 3 yrs to be able to use all 10 strings , so I know you can play alot on the top 8!LOL
JE:-)>

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 13 Feb 2003 3:49 pm

Kevin, you hit the nail on the head. I often feel as if certain instruments w/ idiosyncratic action or tone are "playing me" instead of me "playing them".

Keyboards are a prime example. If I sit at an unweighted synth w/ really light action, I can play a mile a minute, but I find that it lacks soul. But if you put me behind a raggedy old upright bar piano, or early Fender Rhodes, I am forced to play w/ way more emotion and thought. I would assume that the same applies to PSG.

Obviously this theory might be a problem with someone just learning an instrument though. Can you imagine if your first 6 string had such high action that it really hurt to make a barre chord? Would you still be playing?

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Uwe Haegg · Post by **Uwe Haegg** » 13 Feb 2003 3:58 pm

Talking about old stuff.
My Fender twin is 23 years old and I`ve just
replaced the tubes in it. The sound is sweeter than ever.
If it works for you, why do what every one else does?

Melinda Dauley · Post by **Melinda Dauley** » 13 Feb 2003 4:18 pm

Actually Matt, I learned to play 6 string on a flat top 12 string Greco that was a total b***h to play. And a total pain the rear to tune. Playing a 12 string convinced me that the less strings to tune, the better. I loved the sound of it even though it was a horrible pain to play. I still like that guitar a lot. And it's a lot easier to deal with than my other 6 strings.
I guess I'll find out for myself what steel is all about. I've heard advice and I really appreciate all of it.
I think I will stick to the Fender. At least I won't sound like everyone else.
Melinda

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Feb 2003 5:30 pm

As you know, Melinda, each of us picks our own path (no pun intended). Some meet with success, and others do not. A few are constantly happy, but most aren't.

Most of us steelers are a frenetic bunch that's always searching for that "something extra". Many are wont to blame their amp, their guitar, their tuning, their lack of pedals/changes, their pickups, and a host of other reasons for their mediocrity. In the final analysis, however, it's talent, dedication, and style that really matter. Like you, I constantly see players saying what the "minimums" are to play steel. "You need at least 3 knee levers". "You need at least 9 knee levers". "You need at least 12 strings". "You need at least 300 watts". "You need a tube amp". The list goes on and on, and absolutely none of these are true for all players. The biggest limitation, IMHO, is usually between the steel and the seat.

What you need is what you think you need! No one else knows where you want to go, and at this point, you may not even know, yourself. Sure, playing like Emmons would be great. But then again, so would playing like Sneaky Pete, or Joaquin Murphy, or Jerry Byrd. There's so much room for new styles that there's no need to be "pigeon-holed" with the rest of us...at least, right now. I'm sure you'll wind up making all kinds of good music with that old single-8 Fender ( a model "400", if it has pedals) It has a lot of good music left in it.

Many players here on the Forum (myself included), all with the "latest and greatest"...would love to be able to do what Jimmy Day did with an old Fender 1000. Listen to his "Steel And Strings" album sometime, and see if you don't agree.

And remember...it's the hands, and not the paint, the brush, or the canvas, that makes a masterpiece!

Melinda Dauley · Post by **Melinda Dauley** » 13 Feb 2003 6:06 pm

heheheh Donny...
Some of us pick our own path and some of us just end up pickin' fights.
I shoot sacred cows. I went on a guitar forum kind of like this one with a bunch of 6 string guitarists and it was always the same thing....Gibson Les Pauls or a Fender w/ a freakin Marshall half stack or Mesa Boogie. And I told them all that I wasn't impressed with Stevie Ray Vaughn or Jimmy Hendrix. They all recoiled in horror. Then they all had the guts to say Brian Setzer sucks compared to these guys. I kinda feel like you don't need to do a whole lot to be fancy. Soloist/Virtuosi steel players are all good but how about just adding some tasty licks to a song?
My Fender is a double neck. It said Fender 1000 on the tag. Is it a Fender 1000? I need to take a picture. I haven't found a picture of one on the net yet.
Here's the manual to it. Someone was nice enough to put it up on the net:http://www.edusoft.ca/1000/
Have an awsome weekend!
Melinda

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 13 Feb 2003 6:58 pm

Melinda,
If your Fender has two necks with 8 strings per neck,then its a Fender 1000. If it has one neck with 8 strings, its a Fender 400. If it has one neck with 10 strings its a Fender 800.If it has two necks with 10 strings per neck its a Fender 2000.

All I play on is Fender. I have 3 Fender 400s and a Fender 1000 a '54 Stringmaster and a '49 D8.A few Teles one strat. I have 14 old Fender tube amps and have NEVER owned a Peavey.
Don't worry about what people say or think.Just use whatever instrument you want to use to express yourself.
Some say that I'm not a pedal steel player because I don't have 10 or 12 strings and a half-a-dozen knee levers. I say they are right, I'm a musician that happens to play a steel guitar.
So good luck and keep it up, we need more people playing old Fender steels.
P.S. I drive a '49 Ford and a '61 Galaxie[This message was edited by Alvin Blaine on 13 February 2003 at 06:59 PM.]

Melinda Dauley · Post by **Melinda Dauley** » 13 Feb 2003 7:31 pm

Birds of a feather flock together!!!!!
Alvin....I have a 50 Ford and a 61 Fairlane. How weird is that? Those are the years that Fairlanes and Galaxies looked the same.
I'm glad to hear that someone else plays a Fender. Mine is a Fender 1000. Two necks, 8 strings per neck, 8 pedals.
Glad to hear there are "others".
Melinda

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 13 Feb 2003 8:30 pm

A Fender Steel thru a Fender amp, sounds good to me...

tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 13 February 2003 at 08:41 PM.]

David Cobb · Post by **David Cobb** » 13 Feb 2003 9:40 pm

Melinda, I don't recall if you've mentioned anything about it, but what drew you to seek out and buy a steel? Was it curiosity about something new? Do you want to play old country, new country, blues,Hawaiian.....or something of your own invention?

Melinda Dauley · Post by **Melinda Dauley** » 14 Feb 2003 2:36 am

I want to play the old style country on steel.
*Blushes* I started becoming curious about steel because I saw a handsome man playing the most beautiful steel music in the world. (It was Don.)
I have always loved country music. I already play fiddle, guitar, some of mandolin and I'm not really interested in bass or banjo so it seemed logical for a new challenge in steel.
Melinda

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Feb 2003 8:28 am

...I told them all that I wasn't impressed with Stevie Ray Vaughn or Jimmy Hendrix.

Wow! I think you just lost most of the "under 50" crowd with that one. Actually, I was always kinda partial to Jimmy Bryant and Lonnie Mack, myself.

Folks here will tell you, though, that I think the "tone" thing is secondary to the "talent" thing. (Most pseudo-rockers can do very little unless they have overdrive, fuzz, or some other screaming effect.)

I wish you luck with your endeavor, and hope to hear you some time in the future.

Donny

(Fender 1000 player for 8 years...way back when.)

Jordan Shapiro · Post by **Jordan Shapiro** » 14 Feb 2003 10:00 am

hola melinda, my name is jordan and i play the steel and lead guitar in a band called speedbuggy here in los angeles. i grew up in seattle, just a little north of you, playing guitar in various punk rock and
j. thunders type bands.
having no equipment of my own for the most part( i was much better at drinking a lot than i was at buying gear)i've been forced to get a reasonable sound out of almost every kind of amp there is.
last year i went to japan with some punk band and had to play roland amps.....ughh.(thats what i've come to know as a quality problem).anyway, point being that when i actually cleaned up my bad habits and started buying gear i ended up with an old fender twin, a 71 tele and a gretsch nashville.i also have a 78 guild acoustic that kicks #@$ on most old gibsons that friends of mine own. old stuff has soul and feel like nothing made now has!
when i started my obsession with the steel guitar i went from a lap steel to a telecaster with a hipshot b bender that i played on my lap to a student model 10 string pedal steel. then i really lucked out and found a rebuilt sho bud s- 10 with 3 pedals and 4 knees for $850.00 . i have scince bought a peavey nashville because it has its own great sound, but for the most part i play the twin because it has two channels and i have to switch between guitar and steel live. and it sounds amazing!
so now all i really listen to is older country and wonder why more people dont feel the same way as i do about it.? a band like the derailers or dwight yoakam would be at the top of the charts if anyone in nashville had half an ear for good songs and good artists.
so, thats my input for now sorry if it was a little disjointed, i cant seem to keep my mind on one thought for more than about ten seconds.
by the way, i drive a 66 ford f 250 and a 68 chrysler imperial. old cars and guitars....yeeeeeehaw!

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wishing they made volume controls for drums......