What is a "review", anyway?

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 30 Sep 2002 10:08 am

I guess the rather unflattering review by MP of a steeler's TV performance prompted this post, but it got me thinking about music reviews.
Back in the 80's my band was doing great and put all our money together to record an album (yes, a real vinyl LP).
We were thrilled to learn a reporter from our major city newspaper was going to publish a review of it, but when it came out, we were devastated! She didn't like it and said so in the newspaper. We never "recovered", so to speak and broke up soon after that!
So was it the fault of the reviewer?
Should she have been less critical in her review? Really, a negative review served no purpose because we were selling the records only at our gigs.
That being said, should we limit our reviews on the forum to just positive comments, or are negative ones welcome also?
What purpose do those comments serve?

Frank Estes · Post by **Frank Estes** » 30 Sep 2002 10:37 am

No comment.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 30 Sep 2002 10:41 am

I think it's worth noting that you don't see a lot of reviews written here by the "Hall of Famers". The fine line in reviews, is it constructive critism, or objective critisism, personal opinion or just plain vitriolic slander. One has to question the motives of the reviewer if the latter is the case.

A dozen years ago I played regularly on the Rockabilly circuit here in Los Angeles, when there was a vibrant 'roots' movement happening. One of the things, I think, that kept it from expanding was the consitantly bad reviews by a local critic. His issue was that if the band wasn't a "living museum" re-creation of the '50s, then it was crap and not worth hearing. Ultimately this discouraged the audience who was unfamiliar with the music from coming out.

For my own CDs, which are not "Steel Guitar Forum" music, I've usually gotten good reviews ("critics darling", translation: no sales), when I don't get a good review, I carefully read what was said to see whether the critic just doesn't like what I do or whether he has, what I would consider to be, a valid critisim. I value the feedback because it's difficult to be objective when it comes to personal stuff.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 30 Sep 2002 11:02 am

A review is one person's opinion. I think there are a couple of factors that must be considered.

1. A reviewer is often referred to as a 'critic'. Many take that designation very seriously. If they can't find something to find fault with, they'll manufacture something. Some feel the compulsion to criticize something or else they're not doing their job. Hopefully they are equally compelled to praise what they liked -- but that's certainly not always the case.
2. Many professional 'artists' (everything from theatre or movie folk, musicians, graphic artists, to restauranteurs) ignore all reviews -- and so do many of their patrons.
An opinion often reflects an individual's personal taste and preference. A single review should be taken with a single grain of salt. Now, if you have a dozen reviews and all of them are negative, you may want to reevaluate your own perception of what you're doing. (or not)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 30 Sep 2002 11:32 am

For those who take "Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder" as a given, may I suggest that you read David Hume's "Of the Standard of Taste."

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 30 Sep 2002 11:54 am

This is the Hume Essay on the Web
sounds suspiciously like Bill Hankey to me . . .

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 30 Sep 2002 11:58 am

Well I think that the review in question just gave Frank Black and Dave Phillips a lot of free publicity. We also learned that some liked and some didn't, and why. The dialogue was a good thing. and the review served its purpose well here to educate everybody. Was it good or bad for Frank Black? I cannot say, but we all know who he is now, don't we. I think people should quit being so politically correct about everything. Imagine, you have freedom of speech, but you can't say anything for fear of offending somebody. There is much more offensive stuff on the internet than MP's thoughts on Frank Black BTW

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 30 Sep 2002 12:03 pm

I try to mix objectivity and constructive (which includes the lack of something that should have been there) criticism with my 'opinion'.

In the 'complaint' thread, I did include comments on what was missing and what sounded dull and lifeless.

And no, I don't think everything here has to be of a 'positive' nature (big surprise, eh?). Can you imagine how mind-numbingly boring every single thread would be if that were the case?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 30 Sep 2002 12:46 pm

There is a point here..read on...I'm a huge Robben Ford guitar player fan. Those that know of Robben also know that he is above the fray, plays out of modes that almost all of the Blues guys, even some jazz guys only dream of. On the release of his Talk to Your Daughters Cd it was reviewed ...yes ..in Guitar player mag..
The reviewer , idiot that he was and probably still is ,referred to Robben Ford as an Eric Clapton clone and said the album and the playing was nothing more than another in a long line of Clapton clones and he was tired of these players just doing the same old same old.

Wel..that blew my mind and I'm fairly certain that Robben, who was gigging with the Yellow Jackets at the time , had his mind blown as well. I did not take this sitting down, I called Guitar player mag and spoke with Tom Wheeler. I nicely explained that I was expecting a professional magazine and that he should expect his reviewers to know the difference between a pentatonic player and one who plays out of mixalodian, diatonic, diminshed scales..whatever..and that the review of the Robben Ford was CD was done in my opinion by someone who is nothing more than an amateur, probably a wanna be player, cetainly not a musician. Tom told me he thought the Robben CD was great and in his opinion not even close to EC. Now don't get me wrong, I love EC but there is no comparison. EC never played with the Yellow Jackets or Miles Davis..not that he couldn't but thats not his thing, he is not a jazz/fusion type of guy.

JUST LIKE THE REVIEWER of Tony's vinyl album. The reviewer probably didn't even listen to it but decided it would be more appropriate for their own status to write a controversial or crappy review, why?

BECAUSE THEY CAN...

Now on the other side of the coin, we played a show once where we were the worst, I mean we would of had to improve to become horrible...I'm talking broken third string, ( and it was new ) mics didn't work all that kinda stuff . The reviews came out a few
days later and they said we were great ..now there's a person who was smoking too much for sure..

Reviews, I hate em' unless they are from MP of course..then they may just be the beginning of a fun day !
And why would it be that any of us would write a review and post it..
BECAUSE WE CAN ...

tp<[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 30 September 2002 at 01:52 PM.]

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 30 Sep 2002 1:19 pm

I agree!

Call their boss and "rag on 'em" Then call them up and "rag on 'em" These guys can dish it out but they can't take it. Get back at them!

There was a local "music critic" reporter who always wrote bad reviews.

He called me to interview me about a poll of best musicians in town. I asked him "Why do you always write bad reviews? Do you know everybody here in town can't stand you?" He said "Nobody has ever told me that before"... Then he misquoted me in the paper. I called the paper and said "This guy is a jerk, nobody can stand him" He left the job soon after. I don't know if it was related but I sure felt better.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 30 Sep 2002 1:28 pm

What I tried to show was how easy it is to sit back behind your PC and hurt people, much more easy than treating your fellowsteelers on a friendly way. Please keep it friendly, there is enough crap on the whole internet and in other forums. The power and joy for me is the nice way we help eachother uphere, and I assure you this forum dies if we get to much threads like the last one closed in this steelplayersforum.
My 2 cnts.

JJ

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 30 Sep 2002 2:33 pm

I agree with most of the excellent points brought up here concerning reviews, yes even Marty's

A review by its' very nature isn't going to please everyone, that's just something the reviewer and readers alike have to accept.

Robben Ford an Eric Clapton clone? ROTFL! If some of you steelers aren't familiar with Robben Ford, this statement is as ridiculous as saying Paul Franklin is a LLoyd Green clone. Both great but real different!
It certainly shows you can't take a review too seriously.

I was in a band in Vegas in the '80's that got an article in Showbiz magazine. They misquoted every single thing I said. About a year before that in another band, we had an interview for the local paper. All the guys in the band were acting like typical young musicians, joking and teasing the female interviewer. I figured somebody had to give her some straight answers so I did. Article came out and the jokesters were quoted at least semi-accurately, she messed up everything I said! She actually quoted me as saying, "I learned to play fiddle from my Dad, he played it and plucked it". HUH??? What the h*** does THAT mean??? In a band in Texas a guy came up to me and raved about my guitar and steel playing. I was feeling pretty good about that, that's what we all want to hear, right? I stayed and listened to the band that came on after us, and on their break the same guy ran up and said all the same stuff to their guy! I've also been praised when I knew my playing didn't deserve it, that's annoying too but you have to just take it as a compliment anyway. Years ago when playing Linda Ronstadt's "You're No Good" a guy came up to the stage and said to me, "You're no good, you're no good, you're no good......." I was only 19 and that hurt a bit. Oh well.

I think (just my opinion now!) reviews can be helpful. A good review should be taken as a pat on the back. A bad one should first be considered; does the critic have a point? Could you or the player have been sloughing off, getting lazy or sloppy? If you don't think so, then just ignore it and file it under the "he's just an idiot" folder. Any reviewer is also inviting criticism and should be ready for it.
[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 30 September 2002 at 03:36 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 30 Sep 2002 3:01 pm

Well, Austin City Limits is known as a venue that seems to amplify little "glitches" and *other than the Danny Gatton "Beer Bottle Boogie" segment*, I've yet to see one that was totally flattering.

Well, one time I was surfing around and passed ACL. There was a guy that is legendary, and has launched greats such as Eric Clapton, and many others, much as ET did for many country greats.

I can't comment besides I thought it was a bad dream segment from a local access channel, a SNL gag, or just a bloated, rosacea poster geezer, staggering around the world's worst sounding fender keyboard,abusing a harmonica, asking for euthanasia in a language only musicians and/or ailing family pets can understand. I'd be lying to myself if I represented it any other way.

Keep also in mind, the Andy Kaufman phenom, Edie Brickell, and a sort of "C&WAndy Warhol" effect.

Sometimes maybe a person IS supposed to have the "audacity" to know something from shinola. You know, stand at an art exhibit and remark that a lauded epic or modern culture looks like what it is: Elephant dung flung over a picture of The Virgin Mary..

There is a local band that I see pretty regularly. I honestly enjoy them. There is no sense of presentation, cohesion, rythym, style, or dynamic. Kind of like a Gyppo Logging outfit with amplifiers. Perhaps that's what draws me to them. Tantalizingly Taseless, Hauntingly Horrible.

"What was it about those stupid songs that so revulsed me?

I will seek it yet again."

( No. Larry, it's not youse guys).

Anybody give "Rainy Day Woman" a good listen lately?

Just a couple thoughts.

nap/job/nap/job...ad infinitum

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EJL63FLH
'78 Pro III Sho-Bud
'63FLH 90"Stroker
'80 Gold Wing
"You can Smart Yourself Dumb.
Why Can't you Dumb yourself Smart?"-Me
"There are only so many ways to fry cat food."- Buster
"At my age, sometimes I run out of Adrenaline, but I've still got plenty of Gall.." -Me-[This message was edited by Eric West on 30 September 2002 at 04:03 PM.]

Fred Truitt · Post by **Fred Truitt** » 30 Sep 2002 4:05 pm

Fred Truitt
Member
From: Port au Port, Newfoundland, Canada
posted 30 September 2002 04:52 PM profile send email edit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marty, there is a mountain of advice coming out of all this which should help you. My question is????????
WHAT IS YOUR REAL PROBLEM?
I ask this on behalf of a lot of frusturated forumites. We really don't know what you are trying to say.

God help you.......Fred

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 30 Sep 2002 4:27 pm

Well Fred, I'm just having the hardest time figuring out a nice way to tell you to eat s**t and I just can't quite get it. But when I do, I'll tell you just that and you'll thank me when I'm done.

Jeff Evans · Post by **Jeff Evans** » 30 Sep 2002 4:41 pm

Nice review, Eric. You may have nicked a sacred cow or two. It should generate one storm-off-the-Forum-in-a-pretentious-huff, and one and a half tedious "why-can't-we-be-friends" lectures.

Why do we need reviews?

...if [HOFer] and [HOFer] got up on the stage and did a half-hour of Armpit Farts, there would be a throng of drooling misty-eyed enthusiasts waiting to proclaim it as a masterpiece of modern music, worthy of a gold record.

A good review offers insight--not thoughtless, empty approbation.

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Jeff
Pale Monk of Cowtown

[This message was edited by Jeff Evans on 30 September 2002 at 05:44 PM.]

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 30 Sep 2002 5:55 pm

That's my boy.....ERIC WEST.

Doesn't come around very often but when he does.....it is profound.

You might have to break your next post down to only "four letter words"...ERIC, or some of these guys might not be able to get the drift of your message.[This message was edited by Ray Montee on 30 September 2002 at 06:56 PM.]

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 1 Oct 2002 1:32 am

As both a recording artist and a former staff reviewer for SGW, I've been on both sides of this.

When I was writing for SGW, I got a lot of unsolicited tapes from unknowns. Frankly most were pretty bad. I NEVER wrote about any of these. I figured that all I could do was hurt the people involved, and I thought that was not only pointless, but cruel.

On the other hand, I wrote a bad review of the "Notting Hillbillies" CD featuring Mark Knopfler (Lead guitarist from Dire Straits) and Paul Franklin. I was terribly disappointed in this CD. I felt it was far below the standard of excellence these two men had previously shown. (And recaptured when Paul joined the band.) I felt that since these two had already established themselves, and had turned in what I considered to be a substandard performance, it was my duty to let the readers know how I felt.

Mark Knopfler is my absolute all time favorite rock guitarist, and I feel that from a guitar playing standpoint, his (Dire Straits') 1979 "Communiqué" album is the single best recording in the entire history of rock and roll.

Feeling the way I do about Knopfler, and knowing Paul's work, I had very high expectations, and I assumed that a lot of others would too. I felt very let down by this CD, and I expected that others would to. I felt that to make my disappointment known was a service to the readers of the magazine.

As a recording artist, naturally I am flattered by the good reviews my Firebird Suite CD received in magazines like Guitar Player and Audio, but my (former) record company was not as pleased. They told me that from a sales point, One bad review among a lot of good ones was better than unanimous approval. They said that if people read a bunch of good reviews, they make a mental note to buy the CD, but often forget. But if they see critics disagreeing, their curiosity will be aroused and they will run out and buy it much sooner.

I remember back in the 80s there was a local group here called 2 Live Crew that was panned by the critics so badly that they became controversial and sold hundreds of thousands of LPs.

My CD was reviewed by 8 different magazines, and all 8 gave the CD thumbs up. But it did receive one bad reader review in SGW, mainly from a guy who mostly objected to the fact that I wasn't playing country. (The opening words of his review were "Warning: Stay away from this tape. It's as far from country as you can get.") And I have to admit, it hurt to have my work panned that way.

I feel the job of the reviewer is to turn people on to new artists and recordings that they might otherwise not be made aware of, and to let people know if an established artist does something that is not up to par with his or her previous work. I feel it is not the job of a reviewer to slam new artist just starting out and hurt their chances for success.

Russ Rickmann · Post by **Russ Rickmann** » 1 Oct 2002 5:07 am

Members, this is pure entertainment at is best! What I’m not quite sure of is this: if a post offends you, why read it…..Better yet, why respond to it. If we start to read a topic that’s not to our liking, move on to the next topic. It’s that simple. It’s amazing to read that fellow players are going to quit because of someone’s opinion, and that, too, is the reason the ‘pros’ don’t post. The ‘pros’ do post when there is a topic worth replying to. Keep everything in perspective…. this is not surgery.
If a member has something to say, positive or negative, they should be able to speak their mind. And bear in mind, it’s only their opinion. Isn’t that what this forum is about? We don’t all have to agree with them, and if we don’t, I don’t believe we need attack their opinion, or try to change their mind. And if you don’t agree, why not simply state the reasons why you don’t agree in lieu of making an opinion a personal issue. I’m sure, at one time of another, we have all had opinions that we would not want to share for fear of offending someone. Some are just a little more out spoken than others. JMHO Russ

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 1 Oct 2002 9:56 am

Marty Pollard:

Well Fred, I'm just having the hardest time figuring out a nice way to tell you to eat s**t and I just can't quite get it. But when I do, I'll tell you just that and you'll thank me when I'm done.

The profanity filter exists for a reason, Marty. Using punctuation to "get around it" doesn't invalidate that reason. Clean up your speech, or you're out of here. No more warnings.

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<img align=left src="http://b0b.com/coolb0b2.gif" border="0"> Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com 
-System Administrator

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 1 Oct 2002 10:28 am

The little Dutch boy, too?
I don't recall seeing you taking Hans to task over his OVERT use of a word you must SURELY find offensive! What's up there?!? Is it ok if I claim english isn't my native language??? Can I cuss in languages other than english?
Hmmm???

You don't have to like what I post b0b, but I thought you were more even-handed than that. If you're just looking for any old reason then revoke my privilege now, no explanation required (but you know and I know you'll be asked for one by lots of people).

Besides, how do you know I didn't mean SNOT, eh b0b?

Why don't you just post the list of 'forbidden' words?
darn?
heck?
shoot?
fudge?
pooh?[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 01 October 2002 at 11:30 AM.]

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 1 Oct 2002 11:16 am

to much honour to reply on this , so I deleted my reply
Johan[This message was edited by Johan Jansen on 01 October 2002 at 12:41 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 1 Oct 2002 11:19 am

Marty, You're gonna get yourself kicked off, and what will it accomplish. If you're on the Forum, at least you have a chance to debate and possibly influence others with your opinions. If you're off the Forum, then you have no chance. I have known you long enough, through the Forum, and previously in Off-topic, to know that you have highly original and well-thoughtout insight into a lot of things, and you are usually entertaining, and often hysterically funny, but all you're doing is making sure that no one will ever get to see it. That's a shame.

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 1 Oct 2002 11:34 am

Hey! My post topic has been "hijacked".

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 1 Oct 2002 12:20 pm

Listen, to Jeff Marty !
it all depends on you, cause if it depended on me you'd be gone.
Sorry 'bout the hijack Tony
it's not a review, just a preview before the Law comes down

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Steel what?

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 01 October 2002 at 01:22 PM.]