Tone problems on stage

Alex Piazza · Post by **Alex Piazza** » 15 Dec 2005 6:27 am

Ive finally started to find a good tone set up with my amp. However, when I play bigger clubs miked up, my sound gets really thin. Last night It sounded as if I were running direct into the p.a. I geuss the only solution is to have the sound man turn me down and try to get more volume from the stage?

Randy Reeves · Post by **Randy Reeves** » 15 Dec 2005 6:57 am

I feel your 'pain'.
my problem is being able to hear the other players in the moniters as opposed to the sound bouncing from the back of the house.

Ive been told many times what the artist hears on stage is very different to what the crowd is hearing.
usually the audience can hear your tone when you cant.

I personally play better when I can hear everyone. that way I dont feel like I am holding back.
when i dont hold back my tone is there (for me).

Steve Zinno · Post by **Steve Zinno** » 15 Dec 2005 7:54 am

Al, it seems to me lots of sound men just put the mike in the center of the speaker and walk away. The better ones that I've worked with know to put it closer to the edge of the speaker, so I wonder if the mike placement is the problem. The sound coming off that center cone is really thin, and most 57/58 type mics mainly hear what's directly in front of them. I would have them try placing it off-center and at about a 45 degree angle inward (also very close to the grill cloth). If you're getting a good sound from your amp there's no reason why they can't too. Hope this helps.

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steve z.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 15 Dec 2005 8:27 am

I did a breif stint as a sound man and both of the above posters bring up excellent points.

1. what you hear while on stage is unfortunately not indicative of what you will hear in the audience. The stage monitors even when well placed and mixed properly do not sound the same as the house mains.
2. proper mic placement for speakers is just to one side of the cone...you dont want it dead center on that cone.

also everything thats in a room will affect your sound...when the room is full of people it sounds different than when empty...every room sounds different. I think the best thing a player can do is make sure their tone coming out of the amp is good (or at least how they want it..hehe) and trust in the soundman to do the rest. Good ones know their room and know their PA. It sure is hard to play with a bad mix or when you cannot hear yourself or others...it happens sometimes unfortunately.

Alex Piazza · Post by **Alex Piazza** » 15 Dec 2005 8:46 am

Now that I think about it, he did have the mike dead center.

So it is better to have it right up to the grill cloth?

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 15 Dec 2005 8:56 am

I've started instructing the sound man to not add me in the monitors, and then I place my amp so I can get a good earful of what's coming out (and also get some interaction between the amp speaker and the steel's strings). While I'm still at the mercy of the sound man for what the audience hears, I can at least control what I hear (and that does effect how you perform). Generally the rest of the band is OK with that as well, but if indivduals ask for steel in their monitors, a good sound man can do that too. Main thing to avoid is having other lead or vocal folks being drenched in your steel fills. Now about reverb from the sound man....(:>)>=[

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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Session500; Hilton Pedal
www.ameechapman.com

Mike Archer · Post by **Mike Archer** » 15 Dec 2005 9:15 am

mike placement is very important as
to tone and vol going to the house
sound..... i use a sure 57 and i angle
the mike to about the angle of the speaker cone it self this will alow the mike to pick up the sound from the speaker
way better.. and this works just as well in the studio when using th amp

Jeff Hyman · Post by **Jeff Hyman** » 15 Dec 2005 10:05 am

Is it still common that most sound men fail to put PSG in the mix where the audience can hear it? It seemed I always had to strain to here PSG in a mix (even as one in the audience) and a lead break was at a volum that "fills" should be.

Jeff

Steve Zinno · Post by **Steve Zinno** » 15 Dec 2005 10:20 am

Alex,

I like the mic right at the grill cloth for a couple reasons. Most of the time it's an sm57 or 58 type of mike, which the bass falls off rapidly the further it is from the sound source. Close miking also reduces the bleed into your mike from other things onstage, and maximizes your input versus the other sounds. It helps keep your signal a little more discreet in the mix, which is usually better for the sound man.

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steve z.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 15 Dec 2005 11:08 am

The pedal steel guitar presents a unique challenge for sound mixers, primarily in that we actually use our volume pedals and not that many techs understand how to get the correct gain setup - they set it up at sound check with a max volume test and then when the player backs off the pedal they don't know how to cope with the changes or else they turn it up too much when the pedal is backed off and then it clips like crazy when it's solo time. This is a common reason why so many can't seem to get it into the mix correctly.

Another phenomena that I have noted is that the tone that sounds so bitchin' at home sounds thin in a band context. I often find myself adding low-mids (350Hz - 600Hz) to beef it up and give it adequate body to stand up next to the electric guitars, etc.

I do like a small PSG presence in the monitors (usually in balance with the acoustic guitar and well under the vocals), partly because it ensures that the guys on the far side of the stage can tell what I'm doing but also so that I don't have to work the amp so hard just to hear myself. Funny how I seem to play better when I can hear what I'm doing....

Lastly, when my tone seems thin even after boosting the mids it is usually because my amp is turned up and I've got the volume pedal backed way off - THAT will thin out a great tone every time.[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 15 December 2005 at 11:22 AM.]

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 15 Dec 2005 11:29 am

good point about the volume pedal Dave.
It wouldnt be a bad idea to talk with the soundman before you play, esp. if they've never had to mic a PSG before...let him or her know you use a volume pedal, then if you get a soundcheck you should probably tell him/her "this is maxed volume", "this is normal average volume".

Ive nevr had to deal with doing sound for a PSG and since I was (and still am mostly) largely ignorant of the instrument, I dont know if I woulda been considerate of your volume pedals back when I was doing sound,

I could run thru a whole long list of things NOT to do to a soundman...moving my mics, running over my cables with your 400 pound SVT's, turning your amp up mid song, etc....as a musician I wasnt always condsiderate of the soundman, but having been one for a while now, i have a new respect and consideration for their equipment and the job they do, and Ive learned that communication is KEY.[This message was edited by Ben Jones on 15 December 2005 at 12:34 PM.]

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 18 Dec 2005 5:27 am

I almost always used a "Hot Spot" powered monitor when I was doing shows, especially outdoor venues! Because it is light (and powerful)and mounts on a standard mic stand, it enabled me control its placement and use it to its full advantage thus eliminating the need to use my amp as a monitor. Once I dialed in the tone and volume settings which sounded best (to me), there was no further need for adjustments on my amp to compensate for increased noise or stage volume, I simply turned up the Hot Spot. These units can be run from the second output on any volume pedal so equipped.

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 18 Dec 2005 5:59 am

A lot of the problem isn't the soundman. Most sound guys are perceived as ignorant, but you have to work with the limits of the system you have, and steelers are generally a bit too precious about what they can hear. Making adjustments to your stage sound after a soundcheck is the first problem, as it is extremely difficult to make changes on the fly if a steeler decides to adjust to changes in the stage sound; getting louder will simply get you turned down, to avoid feedback. Getting quieter will get no change at all, for the same reason.
The guys who get great sound onstage are generally the ones who have a lot of live experience, and have figured out what they need to do beforehand to avoid problems later. You rarely see a seasoned pro with all his equipment facing in a direction that leaves him as the only guy onstage that can hear him- a really common occurrence! What you are hearing onstage is almost NEVER a reflection of what the audience hears, yet many players will tinker with their tone and volume all the way up to the last tune in the set.
The point is, the sound guy wants a good show as much as you do; treat them as a comrade and not an enemy and you will likely have a better gig.