Drummer's Mic-Suggestions?

Richard E. Lee · Post by **Richard E. Lee** » 26 Jun 2005 6:26 am

I'm looking for advice as to a mic, that our singing drummer can use.
He is currently using one of our SM58's or our Beta58..but we're getting a constant "rumble" or "roar" through the PA. Is the SM57 more directional to pickup just his voice, and not the whole drum set..and/or is there something else we can do to correct this problem? Or is the SM57 just a better choice? thanks

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 26 Jun 2005 7:26 am

Sometimes the mic stand will pick up vibration through the floor and send it through the mic holder and into the mic which will result in a rumble or roar. If he's set up on a hard surface floor, you might try a piece of carpet or a carpet sample under the stand.
DD

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 26 Jun 2005 7:31 am

If it's not the stand and you have an eq on your PA, you can try sliding each of the low band frequency down on the PA equalizer until you find the culprit.
DD

Scott Denniston · Post by **Scott Denniston** » 26 Jun 2005 7:52 am

I see a lot of drummers with those head-set mics. They have to remember to turn them off (or zip it) between tunes though. I recently saw Buck Owens using one and it sounded fine. I guess a guy that's used to "playing" the mic might find it a little hard to get used to.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 26 Jun 2005 8:30 am

Our drummer sings quite a bit and he usually uses a '58 with no problems. Sounds like an EQ issue to me. That frequency should be able to be scooped out of the EQ by an able tech. A '57 will pick up less extraneous noise, however. May be a better option.

Richard E. Lee · Post by **Richard E. Lee** » 26 Jun 2005 7:59 pm

Chris.. he IS using a carpet..and the question of the EQ..may be the culprit here. We're using the Peavey 696F..which filters the feedback, but during "setup"..he is not playing, (of course). I hate to change the EQ for him, as it would change the EQ of the other mics as well. I thought all along a more directional mic was the answer..and I think the 57 is a better choice for this application...everybody agree? Thanks[This message was edited by Richard E. Lee on 26 June 2005 at 09:01 PM.]

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 27 Jun 2005 3:17 am

Richard.. I do believe you will find the 57 more directional and less likely to pick up peripheral "noise", however I agree with everyone thats saying its an EQ issue more than anything else.

A 58 should present no major problems like you describe if it is EQ'd properly.

However, given a choice, for a drummer I would say the 57 is prefferable. bob

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 27 Jun 2005 4:33 am

In my experience, I've come to appreciate a mic that's not connected to the mixer to be best for (singing) drummers .....

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 27 Jun 2005 6:15 am

The Peavey 696F has 3 band EQ on each mic channel. Leave the graphic as is and roll off the lows on the CHANNEL EQ.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 27 Jun 2005 3:16 pm

Barry has the best idea so far....

Singing drummers can be a sound engineer's nightmare - due to its placement the drum vocal mic will always be full of noise from the snare drum, cymbals, etc., plus any echo you might use on the voice will gleefully repeat the snare drum as well whenever the mic is open.

Gating won't help with this problem because the snare drum will open the gate every time - in many cases the snare drum will be louder than the vocal in the vocal mic.

My Shure Technical reference shows exactly the same cardioid polar patterns for the SM57 and SM58 - the only differences between them are that the SM58 has a pop filter and the SM57 has more low end response, so I seriously doubt that you will be happier with the SM57 than with the SM58 that you are already using. The SM57 is a great snare drum mic, though....

Practical solutions are few and far between but there are a few things that can be done:

First and absolutely most importantly - insist that the drummer get all the way up into the mic to sing and learn to project - none of this mailing in a wimpy vocal a foot away from the mic! Optimizing the vocal in the mic allows the sensitivity of that channel to be reduced at the mixer, which will reduce (but not eliminate) unwanted bleed.

Without good mic technique on the part of the drummer there will simply NEVER be a solution to this problem. The closer to the mic the singer is (and the louder they sing), the less bleed in that mic from surrounding instruments - this is true for ALL vocals, not just drummers. Your comment about excessive "rumble" and "roar" lead me to believe that this is quite possibly at the heart of your issue.

Secondly, as Larry mentions, use the mixer channel EQ - not the mains EQ - to reduce the non-vocal content of the channel. The paradox here is that the snare drum lands right in the middle of the vocal range - about 1KHz - and you don't want to completely trash the vocal sound (or do you?). Cutting back on the low end will help with the "rumble" - fixing the "roar" may be another thing altogether.

One seemingly obvious solution is to keep the mic turned off whenever it is not being used for singing, but unfortunately the bleed from this mic can color the overall drum sound enough that often this affects the mix adversley. Have the drummer (and the bass player) play when you sound check the vocal mics - and vice versa. Work for a good mix of vocals and drums, it's totally OK if the drum mics are turned off in the mix if you already have enough drums in the PA with the drummer's vocal mic turned on.

Good question, Richard, I wish there were better answers available - a hypercardioid mic might make a difference, but only if these other issues are addressed first. A cardioid headset generally will be worn farther from the mouth than an SM58 in service mode will be, thus little or no help - when all is said and done, it's the ratio of vocals to drums in that mic that you must find a way to control, maybe it's as simple as getting the drummer to play softer when the mic is on (Oh, sorry, I said 'simple' didn't I? My mistake).

Keep us informed on your progress - this is a tough one for many of us.

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 27 June 2005 at 04:32 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 27 Jun 2005 4:18 pm

Quote: "... maybe it's as simple as getting the drummer to play softer when the mic is on (Oh, sorry, I said 'simple' didn't I? My mistake)."

I agree, no easy answers here. You already have a lot of useful suggestions to try. If the PA mixer has a low end rolloff button (usually around 75 Hz), I find that often helps reduce stage rumble/roar. If that is available, I almost always use it on all channels. I don't find those very low frequencies very useful in a live setting, and often cause problems.

I think the SM 57 makes a great live snare mic, but I would choose the drummer's vocal mic based on what sounds good with their voice. I don't think slight differences in directionality is a big issue - these low frequencies aren't very directional anyway. The mic shock mount is very critical - SM 57/58 have good shock mounts (doesn't SM stand for "Shock Mount"?) But perhaps there are mics with better shock mounts.

I would also definitely EQ with the drummer singing also. If all singers share the same EQ, there must be compromises. To me, the weighting of EQ preferences should be roughly proportional to how out-front that particular singer is. If the drummer is singing lead a lot, his EQ needs should be weighted heavily. If he sings quiet backup, pull him back in the mix and weight more heavily the needs of the more out-front singers. Just some ideas.

Richard E. Lee · Post by **Richard E. Lee** » 28 Jun 2005 9:19 am

Dave M/Dave G..you guys have brought up some interesting and valid points. One, slight comment is that the drummer (1) only sings backup harmony, (2) the drums themselves are NOT miced. Also the 696F PA..has no low frequency cutoff, that I can see. However, I can elimanate those low fequencies from the "Main" EQ and will take out those Lows from the overall mix.
Barry, I love your humor!..Thanks guys for all your feedback. I have very liminted knowledge in this area.(as you can see)..so your input is appreciated. Thanks again

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 29 Jun 2005 9:14 am

When I played with Southern Express, the drummer had a set of AKG C414s inside the drums. Could get expensive though. Seems like the sell for about $400 each. Might be more.

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Gary Shepherd

Carter D-10

www.16tracks.com

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 29 Jun 2005 9:16 am

No I was mistaken. Looks like they go on eBay for around $800 each. $1000 for new ones.

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Gary Shepherd

Carter D-10

www.16tracks.com