Do Volume Pedals with pots sound better?

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 11 Jun 2005 10:43 pm

Hi Everyone,
I've been using Hiltons for the past few years- mainly becasue my Goodrich started to make noise.

I got to thinking recently, that the Hilton may be more difficult to use on swells.
Anyone else feel this way?

Jack Dougherty · Post by **Jack Dougherty** » 12 Jun 2005 5:24 am

Not that I've noticed...

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There is no such thing as too many steels!! Zum D10 8/8
Electronics.. constant state of flux

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 12 Jun 2005 6:01 am

It's all what you get used to. I like the taper on the old pot pedals and was used to it but it didn't take me long to get used to my Hilton at all. Until somebody makes a pot like the old A&B pots, the Hilton and other pedals like it are going to be the choice of most steelers I would think. For those walk on gigs like the Opry where you play one or two tunes and then walk off, something without a chord is going to be needed. I've got two old Emmons pedals I put new pots in last year and haven't taken them out to one gig yet. I've got one of the Goodrich 10K pedals I keep for a back-up in my pac-a-seat but it's the Hilton on the floor.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 12 Jun 2005 8:08 am

I've been using a Hilton for about 1 1/2 years and never noticed any difference in operation or control of the volume. However there is a major difference in tone with the Hilton since it's constant throught the full range of the volume pedal, where pot types tend to slighty change the tone if it's not at full volume.

With the demise of proper value and quality pots for volume pedals, the electronic pedals such as the Hilton are the only "real" option.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Jun 2005 8:29 am

"Better"? I would just say "different". It depends on what your ears want to hear.

The goal of an active volume pedal is to keep the tone consistant while changing only the volume. A pot pedal by it's very nature cuts the high frequencies at the low volume settings.

I played with an active pedal (Goodrich lightbeam) for many years. I figured that since it didn't change the tone, it was "better". I have since changed my mind.

The way that a pot pedal affects tone is very musical to my ears. When I'm at low volume, I don't really want the highs bleeding through. As I increase volume, the high frequecies appear to swell up into the overall tone. I like that. It's an added dimension.

Plus it's one less wire to hook up, or one less battery to worry about.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Jun 2005 9:27 am

David, try turning the gain down on your pedal. Keith ships them pretty set pretty "hot", so if you reduce the gain, it may seem easier to operate.

John Swain · Post by **John Swain** » 12 Jun 2005 9:42 am

Bobby Lee,I agree 100%..I too, bought into the hype that "light beam,unchanged tone" was better.And use one for several years before deciding I liked the "sound" of the pot pedal better! Also ,using Emmons hooked on volume pedals allowed me to reposition my steel as needed for shows and finally,it was one less wire to hook up(I can usually walk in the door and be tuned and playing in 15 minutes...JS

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 12 Jun 2005 10:06 am

What are all those knobs on lap steels, stratocasters, telecasters?
By golly, I think they are potentiometers.

And often we revere...
the sounds that we hear.

Ron

Richard McDonald · Post by **Richard McDonald** » 12 Jun 2005 11:23 am

Guy's,One of the reason pot's are on the demise is that there carbon is old.Carbon has a shelf life of 8 month's depending on how it's stored.Carbon absorbs moisture very quickly.The last batch of pot's i got(6 weeks ago)was right at 2 yrs old.(That's right i was rebuilding with contaminated part's).I rebuild a lot of volume pedals and i want the best for my customers.When i rebuild one and,someone tell's me 3 month's lator that the pedal make's the same noise as it did when thay shipped,well That's not good.That's why i had my own pot's made in canada not mexico.(That was my choice) (fresh and new)in there very own air tight contaner with a bag of desiccant to insure freshness.There is a lot to be said about pots and what there made out of.I want to sell good stuff.

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 12 Jun 2005 12:22 pm

Richard, Here are my observations of carbon. Carbon has a shelf life of "forever and ever Amen". Moisture will not affect carbon. The resistance of H2O is so high that it will not make a noticeable change to the resistance of carbon in a potentiometer. Try this: Connect an audio signal through a carbon potentiometer. Put the potentiometer in a container of water and see if you can hear a difference.
Any moisture that gets in a pot is distilled H2o anyway, by the fact that it is condensed moisture from the air. Distilled H2O has a very high resistance. The only problem I can see is the metal wiper in the pot can oxidize and have poor contact with the carbon. If the wiper has a precious metal plating, it should be safe from moisture. Some pots I have seen,had a piece of carbon attached to the wiper to prevent this problem.
As I stated before, these are my observations gained by first hand experience working in a research lab and troubleshooting electronic equipment. They may differ from someone elses observations.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 12 Jun 2005 1:05 pm

My story is much the same as b0b's, I still use the Goodrich "Steel Man" light beam pedal but occasionally it seems too thin sounding at low volumes.

Recorded some demos the other night and after fooling around a but ended up using the old Ernie Ball spare 'cause it sounded, well, "better."

Richard McDonald · Post by **Richard McDonald** » 12 Jun 2005 1:43 pm

John.I got with The Vice President of State Electronics in New Jersy to look in to the matter of having a better pot made.I rebuild a few pedals and,had several to come back with the same noise.After giving the clerosat part number as a reference point to start from I was told what The numbers mean and,how to read the date of MFG.It was then that the age of carbon issue came up.After several phone calls and conversations I am convinced that thay know.These people design and sale over 1 millon pot's per year.Also,thay did not stock them because of the carbon age issue.I don't know all there is to know about pot's.All I know is the ones thay made for me are super.and when I install one or sale one it is fresh and new.I do see a truth in what you say and,I don't doubt it one bit but,I took the plunge,set up an account and,had them made and shipped looking for a better way to serve my customers.How many Would you like for me to send you?I love you man.Be Blessed

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 12 Jun 2005 2:55 pm

Do not compare the old "light beam" pedals to the new generation of "electronic" volume pedals. It's night and day different. About the only thing in common with the old and new volume pedals is they control the volume. How they do it and what affect they have or don't have (transparancy) on the tone is much different.

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 12 Jun 2005 3:26 pm

Richard, I am sure that the pots you have are very good. I did not mean to suggest in any way that they are not good pots. If I need a pot in the future, I will be in touch. I have lived my whole life "without a pot to **** in". Maybe I am due for a good one.... hahaha. Keep up the good work . Oh... while I think of it..... When I worked with Ralph Mooney, I saw him ,many times, pick up his noisy fender pedal and pour what ever he was drinking into it to clean it. It was good for the rest of the night. His contact cleaner of choice was "salty dog". When that wasn't handy, beer would have to do........JD

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Jun 2005 4:41 pm

I recently installed a 25 year-old AB pot in an old Fender volume pedal that I recently bought. It performs flawlessly.

So, I don't care if the guy at State Electronics sells a billion a week! The idea that a pot has a shelf-life of only 8 months (or even 2 years) is pure bullhockey.

Frank Verdone · Post by **Frank Verdone** » 12 Jun 2005 4:45 pm

I have to agree with pot lovers. I like the way you can work it to your favor. I have found the Canadian pots to be excellent & also they seem to not affect the tone as much as the old ones. Just my opinion! The pots are made by a company called Ohmite & I purchased them from Steel Guitar Nashville

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Jun 2005 7:25 pm

Jack Stoner wrote:

Do not compare the old "light beam" pedals to the new generation of "electronic" volume pedals. It's night and day different. About the only thing in common with the old and new volume pedals is they control the volume. How they do it and what affect they have or don't have (transparancy) on the tone is much different.

Jack, are you saying that the new generation of electronic pedals can be made to sound like a pot pedal, with the high-frequency roll-off effect?

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 12 Jun 2005 10:27 pm

I really apreciate all the input gentlemen.

I have tried messing with the Hilton's top volume, and stop point. I have found it works better if the off position sill allows a little signal.

Still, hearing what others have to say re-enforces what I thought to begin with.

What about when one buys a new Goodrich with potentiometer?
Do they have a supply of good ones.
Come to think of it, I'll bet if I send it back they'll fix the one I've got- they are very accomodating and nice to work with.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 13 Jun 2005 2:30 am

b0b, no but the new generation does not "color" the sound like the old ones do.

I've heard many reports about the old pedals, such as the Edwards Light Beam or the Goodrich's affecting the tone.

However, the Hilton has an adjustment for the tone, if you want something other than "full tone". It also has an On adjustment (e.g. do you want it completely off or do you want a slight amount of volume in the off position). Also, it has a gain control that can be adjusted for no loss, or some lower level. I don't know what the new Goodrich LDR pedals have but from descriptions it would appear they have about the same as the Hilton.

Having said my "commercial" for the new technology pedals, my main reason for buying one was the pot situation. If the "correct" pot was still available I would probably still be using my Goodrich 120.

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 13 Jun 2005 5:52 am

I still use a pot pedal but for a different reason than I've seen posted. With the electronic pedals I hear a loss of presence in the wound strings. I do not hear the "windings" as well. The exact difference as when I use humbucking pickups as compared to single coils. That tone adjustment pot in the pedal does the same thing as the tone control on an Emmons guitar when it is still turned to the bright side. I think everyone can hear the difference when they bypass that switch, even when it is turned all the way clockwise. The buffer circuit in the pedal is boosting the highs to make up for some of this effect, but it is changed. Some guitars need this, especially ones with pickups in the 19k or higher range. These are just my opinions. Your mileage may vary!

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Randy
http://hometown.aol.com/pulltightb/home.html
[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 13 June 2005 at 06:53 AM.]

Richard McDonald · Post by **Richard McDonald** » 13 Jun 2005 7:04 am

Frank,the pot's I had made are not made by Omite.Thay were made by Precision in canada.I had to buy 75 of them in order to get set up

Richard McDonald · Post by **Richard McDonald** » 13 Jun 2005 7:09 am

John,I was told that what thay used is called Tuning fluid

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 13 Jun 2005 7:57 am

I have zero electronic tech training, and do only rely on my ears, like b0b. The past few months I've been using my Hilton, I've experienced nothing but pure pleasure.... I do have a Goodrich pot pedal (the one with the preamp/buffer circuit in it), and I do use if when my band is sandwiched in between many other acts and I have to be on in 10-15 min..... so I've had many recent comparisoms with the Hilton.... I always miss the Hilton. The way I would explain it would be the full spectrum of tone seems to be coming through, and that is MY personal preference.... as discussed in the lastest steel tone thread last week, I can manipulate the subtle adjustments of tone at low or high volume with my other playing techniques.... I want my eltronics to be constant.... IMHO, only... b0b is right, there is only what sounds good to each individual, viva la difference!

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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Session500; Hilton Pedal
www.ameechapman.com

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 13 Jun 2005 11:47 am

i have used Ernie Ball, De Armond, Edwards, Fender, Sho Bud, GoodRich, those big ugly Morley pedals, i still have a GoodRich combo Volume/Wah pedal...wouldn't part with this hybred, am still using my ole trusty Curly Chalker Volume pedal..i have the GoodRich family, go over it every now and then, they tell me to use it, and stop worrying about it so much. I am going to retire it shortly, nothing wrong with it..But i'm afraid it might end up missing, or damaged, and it's a collectors item, or soon will be, Bobbe S sold one awhile back for almost twice what i paid for it new...i will be getting a new GoodRich Pedal.. LDR..But Improvement? maybe in the system of how it works, but sound? not any better as far as i'm concerned. So to answer your question.."NO"!
And Bobby, i WANT my volume pedal "Consistent" through the volume change!

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Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 13 Jun 2005 12:47 pm

My personal experience with pot pedals....

In 1982 I bought a new Sho~Bud guitar and a Sho~Bud volume pedal. Having had the unhappy experience of a "pot going south" in the middle of a job, I soon bought another Shobud volume pedal to carry in my pac-seat as an extra.

I replaced the pot in the primary pedal once or twice during the 18 years before I bought a Hilton, but I still carry the extra Sho~Bud pedal with the original pot as a backup. When I check it out to see if it is still serviceable, it is still noise-free!

I guess I've been lucky....However, I still break a lot of 3d's.

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