In Line Tuner Tone Degradation

Lawrence Lupkin · Post by **Lawrence Lupkin** » 3 Mar 2005 4:00 pm

I'm using the Peterson VS II tuner between my push-pull and my volume pedal. I think the tuner is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The thing is, unless I'm finally losing what's left of my brain, it seems that when I play through it, I get deader tone. I don't think it's a cable issue.

Could old batteries be the culprit? I don't remember this always being the case. I'm off to the store for some fresh ones, but I was hoping someone less electronically challanged than me could explain if the addition of the tuner could make a difference.

Thanks in advance!

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 3 Mar 2005 4:17 pm

Lawrence, many of us will not leave a tuner in line. Some claim their tuner doesn't affect the signal. At any rate,I will not play with a tuner inline. I simply switch my tuner in and out with a switch. Some players connect the tuner to one of the preamp outputs on their amp.
Hopefully we will hear some more suggestions. Good luck.....JD

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 4 Mar 2005 3:15 am

You have to be careful where you connect a Peterson. The input is not "bullet proof" like many tuners. Mine failed and according to the factory it was probably the input circuitry and the comment from the tech at the factory was "people connect all kinds of signals to the tuner".

I've never had a tuner fail, before, and it appears Peterson needs to go back and re-engineer the input circuit so whatever signal is input (at least almost any signal) will not cause failure. (They also need to put a power time out circuit in it as I've had to resort to putting a "block" on the power switch as I've had several occasions that I've pulled it out of the carrying case I have (not the Peterson case) and the power switch was on and it drained all the power from the batteries).

Thomas Bancroft · Post by **Thomas Bancroft** » 4 Mar 2005 7:17 am

Lawrence,

All tuners are tone suckers if left in line.
Get a Hilton Pedal and run the second output to your tuner. This will prevent signal loss.

TB

Bill Leff · Post by **Bill Leff** » 4 Mar 2005 7:25 am

The Peterson Strobostomp pedal is true-bypass.
www.strobostomp.com

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 4 Mar 2005 7:25 am

Both of the Emmons and Goodrich pedals that I use have a 2nd output that I use for a tuner. If you don't have a foot volume with 2 outlets, you can always get a Y cable and split the signal from your guitar.
Erv

Lawrence Lupkin · Post by **Lawrence Lupkin** » 4 Mar 2005 8:10 am

Thanks for the replies! I actually have a Hilton pedal on the way. I never thought about using the second pedal output of my Goodrich. It worked like a charm. The strings we sounding as I made the change and the difference was a bit shocking. The only downside is not being able to tune completely silently. It seems that if I have the pedal open a tiny bit, the tuner will pick up the signal.

Problem solved. Thanks!

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 4 Mar 2005 8:58 am

Lawrence, I wired a switch to switch the guitar from amp to tuner so I can tune silently. I used a DPDT switch. 1/2 of the switch is used to short the input to the amp when tuning so there is no chance of the open cable picking up AC hum. I use a rack case for my tuner and effects unit. I mounted the switch in the rack case (in a metal box for shielding)........JD

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 4 Mar 2005 9:09 am

Yeah even the state of the art Peterson sucks tone.So I built an A/B switch into a small Bud-Box which plugs into the end of my guitar and hangs there like a BossTone. It has a small mini-toggle on top and two 1/4" jacks - one in front and one facing backwards plus a panel mount male 1/4" plug (like on a Bosstone). I mount my Peterson on the front leg and connect it to the A/B box with a 6" GL cable and then hook my volume pedal to the rear jack. This allows me to tune silently and quickly - during a song if necessary. -MJ-

Lawrence Lupkin · Post by **Lawrence Lupkin** » 4 Mar 2005 2:43 pm

Am I correct that the two output jacks on the Goodrich are different? It seems like one is hotter than the other. (The one in the middle)

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 4 Mar 2005 4:07 pm

Lawrence, The Goodrich 120 (passive pedal) has both output jacks wired in parallel. You will get the same signal out of either.
The Hilton pedal also has both output jacks wired together....JD

Lawrence Lupkin · Post by **Lawrence Lupkin** » 4 Mar 2005 4:47 pm

Great. Well, I'm off to play with my newly discovered tone. Dang, now I have no excuse.

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 6 Mar 2005 9:57 am

Lawrence,
You had mentioned that the only drawback to using the second output on your volume pedal was the fact that you had to open the pedal slightly to get a signal to the tuner and could not tune silently. I solved this problem with a slight modification to my volume pedal... Unsolder the short jumper wire (that leads from from one output jack to the other) from one output jack leaving the wire connected to the remaining jack.Then resolder the jumper wire directly to the input jack, thus bypassing the volume pot on that one jack and supplying a constant signal to the tuner even when the VP is in full off position. Hope this is helpful.
David

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 6 Mar 2005 10:29 am

I've used Korgs since the DT1. It put a very faint "buzzing" (not a hum, just a faint crackle with low level signal, only detectable in a studio) signal into the loop.

I ditched it for the DT3, when they came out years later and noticed no degradation or "extra signal" of "tone change". No way. Not under any "microscopic" ear analysis that I could put it thru. I've used it for a dozen years.

(I had a similar search for an overdrive that didn't change the tone, and settled on an Ibanez Turbo Overdrive. Most of the others changed the EQ.)

Now I have a GT12, and if I found any tuner put any signal into the mix, or detracted in ANY way, it'd be in the garbage can or on it's way back to the manufacturer for some more R&D. I'm not very patient with things that say they're "in line" and are actually an "effect".

I'd tell them if I wanted a "tone changing effect", that I'd buy one.

Especially if I paid over 50 bucks for it.

Sheesh...

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 06 March 2005 at 08:02 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 6 Mar 2005 10:47 am

Everything in the signal path affects tone. If a box isn't doing something deliberately to enhance the signal, it will certainly degrade the signal. There's no such thing as a perfect bypass switch.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 6 Mar 2005 3:16 pm

I guess I am corrected to state: If my tuner "out" doesn't match the "in" to be impossible for my ear to detect, and they don't provide a "little guy" inside it who, after measuring the frequency doesn't put the signal back exactly as he found it, then they need to find another "little guy", or they'll never sell me a tuner.

Guitar cords degrade the signal. I'd expect a $50+ tuner to degrade the signal no more than the best of a foot's worth of them.

I give my money to Korg every ten years or so, as they have seemed, to my ears, to have gotten it down to less than what my ear can discern since the advent of the DT3, more than a decade ago.

Again as a couple mentioned, the second line out of a VP necessitates pushing the pedal.

I always use mine in front of it. It's possible a paralell tap to the "in" side would accomplish this, but as long as Korg keeps turning out in line tuners that don't discernably alter my signal, I couldn't care much less about it.

The Peterson Strobostomp does look promising.

Looks cool too.

EJL

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 6 Mar 2005 3:41 pm

I'm with Eric on this one. I have a Boss rm tuner that acts as a level meter when not being used as a tuner. And it's the first thing after the volume pedal. I wouldn't have anything in my rack that messed with my tone.

Any high end audio equip. worth it's salt should eliminate any such problems if it's designed to be left in the signal path. Perhaps these tuners in question aren't meant to be left in line. [This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 06 March 2005 at 04:04 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 10 Apr 2005 8:18 pm

Well after looking around, getting the User Manual, and trying to get answers on the 'Strobostomp forum', I've decided to stick with the better Korg GT12, or DT3.

After trying to weasel around the fact that Peterson Tuners, when used in line, degrade the signal appreciably, the "new fix" for the Strobostomp, is an active "DI" for an XLR output, and presumably an adapter to an unbalanced 1/4" plug, I've got to announce that I have no idea why someone would buy one.

I don't know a soul at Korg, but the first DT1 I bought about 13 years ago indeed did add a small buzz, and very slight EQ change.

About four years after that I bought a DT3. In Line, and On, I have NEVER been able to ascertain any change in EQ, degraded, or added signal.

Recently I bought a GT12, to try something different with an analog needle. It is the same way. NO degradation, addition to, or EQ change of the signal.

Evidently Peterson has never found out how to do what Korg has.

It's too bad, cause those little Strobostomps looked really solid and have lots of nice features for those that like to untune some of their notes.

Oh well...

EJL

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 11 Apr 2005 1:48 am

Eric,

Actually, the Strobostomp has true bybpass going through the standard 1/4" jacks. You need to set the dip switches inside the battery compartment to achieve this. Billy Phelps and I tested these tuners at NAMM and could not discern any tonal shift. The Strobostomp design achieves TRUE BYPASS.

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John Fabian
Carter Steel Guitars

www.steelguitar.com
www.steelguitarinfo.com
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www.magnumsteelguitars.com

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 11 Apr 2005 4:29 am

Yea, what John just said. You have to set the Peterson to be "true-bypass".

Brad

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 11 Apr 2005 5:12 am

Yes, and from all of my research, my understanding of "True Bypass" means that the tuner is OFF when this happens.

What I'm talking about is having it ON, and IN LINE.

In other words, having it ON WHILE YOU ARE PLAYING. My experience with Korgs is exactly as I relayed.

Sometimes I feel like I woke up on another planet..

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 11 April 2005 at 06:14 AM.]

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 11 Apr 2005 6:52 am

I use a "Korg DTR-1" tuner.

I have it parelled off the left channel of my "Profex II" (via a Y splitter) and it dosen't cause me any problems at all. There is NO ambriant sounds from the tuner, No loss of signal,freq or such. And I can check the pitch of any string even while in the middle of a song. Works GREAT !!!!

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Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 11 Apr 2005 9:19 am

I have had the same experience as Eric with the little early Korg tuners. Even when I used it on the "tuner output" of the pedal it caused a buzz in the amp line. I guess I'm too stingy (or something) to get something else so once I have done the tuning thing I unplug it and turn it off.

Fortunately my Pro I actually holds its tuning really well and I usually only have to tune once, after letting the guitar find room temperature.

Those big rack-mount units that show you (and everybody else) what's happening all the time DO look pretty sexy, though!

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 11 Apr 2005 4:48 pm

Being an objective enough guy, here's what Mr Norris from Peterson wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Hi Eric,

 quote:I am to surmise from the Manual and the FAQ posts here, that the tuner circuit degrades and or changes the signal appreciably in the "In Line" mode.

The "remedy for this" is appearanty the DI, balanced or non.

Is that a correct conclusion? -EJL- 

No, you must have been reading about some other tuner.
You can use the StroboStomp in either True Bypass (absolutely no degradation) or MON/DI mode (little or no degradation) if you need the tuner to be on and inline while you play (the MON part means monitor = monitoring your tuning while playing).
It has nothing to do with the built in DI, it just happens to be active in non-True Bypass mode, you just configure the Stomp using the dipswitches to be either on or off while you play.
The 'Stomp is the only tuner that you can put in line without worrying about signal integrity.

-John N. Peterson Factory Rep- <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK then.

The only thing I have disagreement with is that my experience with Korg Tuners after the DT1 shows me that there is at least one other that I know does this "monitor" function with no degradation that I can discern.

Like I said, the Strobostomps look like a good unit, and should one need a DI, it would be a nice feature as well.

The StroboStomp Forum for anybody interested is informative.

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 11 April 2005 at 06:03 PM.]

jerry harkins · Post by **jerry harkins** » 11 Apr 2005 5:26 pm

The VSll is not true bypass,so you must AB it or disconnect it. Turning the tuner off will not make it true bypass. The eletronics in the tuner will still suck the tone and power from your guitar.
This means that even if you hook it up to the second out on your volume pedal,{that is wired in parallel} it will still suck the tone. AB is the best solution IMO.
Jerry.