How to use Hertz on DTR1

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 15 Mar 2002 5:14 pm

OK, I've had this thing about a year, still tuning to cents. How the heck do you use the Hertzs end of the thing??? A simple explanation for a simple mind would be nice, but I would like to know how to use it. I do know the formula to convert Hertz to cents, no problem, but if I don't have to ------!!
Steve[This message was edited by Steven Knapper on 15 March 2002 at 05:16 PM.]

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 15 Mar 2002 9:22 pm

Anyone got an answer to this??

Jim Whitaker · Post by **Jim Whitaker** » 15 Mar 2002 10:34 pm

Steven I believe Jeff Newman has a hertz tuning guide on his website.

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JIM
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Mike Kowalik · Post by **Mike Kowalik** » 16 Mar 2002 5:48 am

In past discussions here on the Forum concerning the conversion of hertz to cents I believe the consensus was that one hertz is equal to approximately four cents.

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 16 Mar 2002 7:27 am

Jim's correct. Jeff's chart is at http://www.jeffran.com/tuning/tuning.htm

The way I understand it, if set you tuner to the Hertz suggestion for that note, you then tune to ZERO Cents.

Jeff sez, "To use the cents scale, multiply the difference from 440 by 4, ie 442 = +8 cents"

IMO, using hertz involves too much button pushing. It's far easier to stay at 440 and look at the needle's change in Cents.[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 16 March 2002 at 07:31 AM.]

Chick Donner · Post by **Chick Donner** » 16 Mar 2002 7:49 am

I don't see how it's MORE difficult to "leave it at 440 and use cents."

I've had a DTR1 for several years now, and just set it to 442 and go. 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, (and in my case 12) are tuned "straight up" open. Then 3 and six tuned about 3-4 cycles flat OPEN. 3 & 6 tuned straight up pedaled (A). The rest of them you can figure out from Jeff's chart. I don't touch a single button, once I turn the power on, set the machine to '442' and 'hertz.' Just use my eyes to tune the guitar. Thankfully, my guitars almost never require tuning the pedals, so I don't have to mess with that all that much. BUT, the DTR1 has made tuning, for me, faster and better than ever. It's my first electronic tuner . . . for 30 years, I'd tuned to an E and A fork . . . I'll not go back to that, however.

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 16 Mar 2002 9:29 am

AHH, then what I thought was correct, except for
Chick, who's got a thing worked out. There IS a lot of button pushin'. Thanks guys for the help. Chick, I am going to study your way, most of my open 12 strings are at 440 anyway, I might be able to figure out something for me. Steve [This message was edited by Steven Knapper on 23 March 2002 at 06:15 PM.][This message was edited by Steven Knapper on 23 March 2002 at 06:15 PM.]

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 16 Mar 2002 11:57 am

Moved to 'Pedal Steel' (or should it be in 'Electronics'?).

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 -b0b- quasar@b0b.com 
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CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 16 Mar 2002 3:41 pm

Like Chick said) i don't push buttons very much either on mine.
Just turn it on, 440 + Hz
i'm not a reference on tuning tho'...
i find Hertz are more precise than Cents.
i've been lucky cause nobody's told me i'm outta tune yet...
Steel happy tunin' up ...

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 16 March 2002 at 03:42 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 Mar 2002 11:15 am

I use cents because it's the standard unit of measurement for musical pitch. Hz is misleading.

When someone says "I tune my E's to 442 Hz", they are making a false statement. Hz is the actual number of cycles-per-second of the sound wave in the air. 440 Hz is a standard "A" note. No way could 442 be an "E". "E" is 329.6 Hz. 442 Hz is a sightly sharp "A".

When we talk about cents, we are saying how far we deviate from the equally tempered scale. 100 cents is one semi-tone, whether you're going from C to C# or from E to F. It's a relative measurement based on a musical context. Hz is an absolute measurement based on a scientific context.

The Hz scale on electronic tuners is meant for calibration. Steel players are probably the only musicians in the world who think that something other than an "A" can be 440 Hz. It makes us look ignorant, IMHO.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 17 March 2002 at 11:21 AM.]

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 17 Mar 2002 1:19 pm

I totally agree, b0b.

The first time I saw, "I tune my Es to 442" I was confused. I understand what is meant, but the statement is literally untrue.

Bump this over to Electronics if you'd like.
We'll kick it around for a while.

-j0ey-

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 17 Mar 2002 1:33 pm

Yeah, bump it over to electronics, this is getting interesting. Joey, I understand what you and bOb are saying, so why does Newman and others make a big deal of using Hertz scales instead of cents. I was taught cents from day one by Blackie Taylor, my teacher and mentor. What is the point of doing it??
Steve

Tom Bradshaw · Post by **Tom Bradshaw** » 17 Mar 2002 3:24 pm

I figured out a long time ago that Jeff Newman recommended the 442 for his E string because of the amount of cabinet drop in the guitar he was playing. I watched over the years how he would keep coming up with a different setting for the E string (and actually other strings that were changed by pedal action). It always seemed to happened when he played a different brand of steel. When I discovered this, I realized that if you want to play at 440 most of the time (if the band you play with tunes to 440), you have to compensate for the amount of detuning in your guitar.

After tuning up, pick your E string and press A & B pedals. Watch the needle in your VU meter. That string will go flat a bit. Whatever amount it does, simply tune it sharp the same amount, so that it is sitting on the 440 mark with those pedals are depressed. Since you more often play with your pedals engaged, tuning sharp of 440 (on the E string) will mean you are more often in tune than not. How often do you play in the open position without using your bar or without depressing any pedals or knee levers? Not often, huh? Thus, maintaining a 440 on that string when fretting or when using your pedals and knee levers, means you are likely to be in tune most of the time.
This recommendation has worked for everyone I'm mentioned it to. But then, I know some will not want to do this, and that is OK if you are happy with the sound you are getting. ...Tom

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 18 Mar 2002 12:36 pm

Glad to see your post here Tom. It's the experience of guys like you that makes the SFG so valuable.

If you reread b0b's description about why the term "E's to 442" is incorrect I'm sure you'll agree.

It's just a matter of terminology.

You're quite correct that cabinet drop issue is the reason to tune Es slightly sharp.

Way back, a well know player taught me to tune by:

Press A B Pedals down, tune the third and sixth strings to a reference A (it was a 440 tuning fork),

Keep the pedals down and tune the E strings to the newly tuned 3rd and 6th strings. (You learn to hear the Perfect Fifth). A meter will then show they're 2% sharp.

That's how I still do it.

Steve,
I too would like to know why Jeff and some others like to look at it from the Hz point of view. If anyone here sees him, please ask and report back. I suspect he'll say it's just what he started with, doesn't matter, it's the same result.

[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 18 March 2002 at 12:38 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 18 Mar 2002 1:00 pm

The terminology is somewhat ambiguous.

If one says "I tune to 440", that doesn't mean that every string on his guitar is tuned to A (which 440 IS).

I believe we've (mostly) come to understand that the context would indicate "I tune to the reference standard A=440". Most electronic tuners won't tell you the frequency of the note you're playing anyway, so I'm not sure why some folks object to 'A440' referring to any note tuned relative to the A=440 standard.
Tuners are calibrated in Hz (also called cycles or cycles per second or cps) based on the frequency of the reference tone: A. If it's 439, it's 4 cents or 1Hz flat of the 'concert' reference. Newman's chart gives the formula -- all you have to do to convert is subtract 440 from the number on the chart and multiply by 4 to get cents.

Some may find the information on this page helpful. It is BY NO MEANS complete but may be useful. More info can also be gleaned from searching the Forum archives -- but get ready for some heavy gleaning.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 18 Mar 2002 4:59 pm

so why does Newman and others make a big deal of using Hertz scales instead of cents. I

My guess is that it is just for expediency. This is the way that most quickly makes sense visually, using a lot of tuners. I think that with my Korg, I would have to guess a lot more if I primarily used the cents markings. I would be tuning between the marks to a greater extent than when using the hertz markings. The cents markings are a lot smaller, too.

Chick Donner · Post by **Chick Donner** » 19 Mar 2002 11:51 am

OK . . . Tom Bradshaw's right, to a point. My old Emmons PP's don't HAVE any "cabinet drop" that I can discern, and that is using the DTR 1 to try to find it.

I was originally told (and it seems to be correct) that the reason one tunes the E's on a steel to 442 (reference) is that if you're working with a lead guitar, AND you're playing in A, AND play a[n] open pedals down A, you're in better tune with the lead player. It seems to work, but I'll leave it to you'uns who know a whole lot more about the science of pedal steel than I do to explain why.

Jeremy Moyers · Post by **Jeremy Moyers** » 19 Mar 2002 12:29 pm

I tune to 442 because of the fallowing reason. The only note on a piano that is actually 440 is middle c. Everything else is tempre tuned. So, When you get to the notes on a piano that are in the same "frequency range" as the open notes on an E9th tuning they are actually tuned sharp to a 442. Thus, when I am playing with a piano and I use open string pull-offs, etc. my notes are intune with the notes that the piano is playing in my "frequency range".
This can vary according to how "wide" the piano is tuned. Somtimes you must adjust accordingly.
Just my outlook on this subject.
Jeremy

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 19 Mar 2002 8:52 pm

Thanks to you all, this has been very interesting. Now I have to figure why I spent the extra $$ for the DTR-1 ------- OH YEAH, so I could tune other guitars from the front jack, I remember now AND the neato strobe tuner, haven't had one of those since High School!!
Ya'll are great. Steve

Tom Ensink · Post by **Tom Ensink** » 21 Mar 2002 5:18 am

Hi Guys!

I have been following this type of discussion for a couple of years now.

I would describe myself as a sort of "lazy" psg player, with not too much time at hand to concern myself about tuning for a very long time. And I admit, I have trouble tuning the steel by ear.

I have been using Jeff's chart for a couple of years, just to get things going (the results were acceptable, so why change?).

However, as your experience grows and your chops get better, you notice that you and the people around you become more critical about you being in tune or not. Moreover, my first studio gig learned that - alas - it just does not work that way.

I think the discussion about the tuning charts has been very helpful. However, as Tom Bradshaw rightly pointed out, Jeff's tuning chart is based on "empirical" data based on the amount of cabinet drop.

I know that Jeff has been trying to introduce this as an acceptable "standard" so he must have tried it with different guitars. Anyway, Tom Bradshaw has to be right that for each guitar the exact tunings should be slightly different (depending on the amount of cabinet drop, the copedant used, Day set up, Emmons set up etc.).

Now, this is the point I am trying to make: could anyone explain to me how I could "recalculate" Jeff's chart for the exact settings of my guitar? I know that you have to do some parts by ear. I also read in this thread that you have to tune the E string with AB pedals down to 440, but what about the other strings and changes? (E.g. you can only tune the 3rds with pedals down if you are sure that the B change is in tune as well).

But as far as I know there is no comprehensive list or a "how to" manual to adapt this chart to your own amount of cabinet drop, while it should be possible to make such a list.

Can someone help me with that?

Tom

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Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Mar 2002 8:40 am

(this is just for E9 and is what works for me)
1. Tune your 4th string to an electronic tuner -- straight up to the A=440 reference, then push your A+B pedals. Record the pitch of the E string. That's one measure of the 'detuning factor' for your guitar.
2. Tune the E's and B's to that amount sharp. You may just want to tune the E's with both pedals down and the B's with the B pedal down, but I prefer to tune them all with reference to the E string.
3. That is the starting point -- now the tricky part -- the thirds. Tune the 3rd string so that the E chord sounds in tune -- check it with and without the bar. The 'Just Intonation' point may be found using the harmonic on the 4th fret of the 4th string. Tune the 6th the same way (harmonic on the 8th string). Now you should have an E triad (E G# B) that is in tune. The thirds will probably be about 3-4Hz(436 or 437) or 12-16cents flat. The trick is to find the point where the hair stands up on the back of your neck as you raise the thirds. For me, it's between 4 and 8 cents flat (or 438-439Hz).
4. Tune the A's to 0 (440)
5. Tune the third of the pedals down A chord the same way. The C# (A pedal on 5 and 10) is the third. The Just Intonation (harmonic the 6th string at the 4th fret with B pressed) wants about 16 cents flat and Equal Temperament wants 0. Find the point in between that works for you.
6. The E to F lever should be tuned as a third of the C# chord you get with A+F. Since the C# is already tuned flat, the F will have to be even further flat. Just Intonation wants something obscene like 30 cents flat (1/3 of the distance between frets). You can get by with much less before it starts sounding awful. I usually go 12-16 cents flat.
7. Notes like D, D#, F#, A#, G, (etc.) are less noticeable. You may get away with tuning them straight up.
During this process be sure to check your E, B, and A notes often to be sure you're not tuning to a note that's out of tune (huh?

).
Also be sure that the E, A, B, and C# triads (no pedals, A+B, Eb lever, and A+F) are in tune, both open and using the bar in different positions.

NOW WRITE IT ALL DOWN. This will create a chart that's personalized for your guitar. If you use it often you will memorize it.

Most players become more proficient at tuning and/or their ear becomes better educated as time goes by. Also, be aware of the difference between TUNING and PLAYING IN TUNE. They are very different. As soon as the warmth from your hands hits the strings, their pitch will change. I GUARANTEE IT.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 21 March 2002 at 01:30 PM.]

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 21 Mar 2002 9:54 am

Nice essay Larry.
I plan to spend some time with it.

Question:
In step one, you note the deviation of the E String. Which E string?

I can hear a 2% change on my wound E, no noticable change on my unwound.

Ain't tuning fun!

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 21 Mar 2002 10:27 am

I can hear when the guitar is out of tune, either with the pedals or levers or open. But withe less than 2 years into PSG, I go to the tuner. On a six sting, if I had a string go out, I could tune that sucker while playing the song. I got a good ear, maybe I should start using it on PSG and see what happens.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Mar 2002 11:31 am

j0e,
I meant the 4th string as the reference. It is very unusual, but not unheard of, for the 8th to drop, but not the 4th. If you press your A and B pedals are the two E's noticeably different? I would try just tuning both to 440 or 441 (0 to +4 cents) and see how that sounds. Same with the B's. You may be best tuning all A's E's and B's straight up. Just be sure the octaves match -- that's where you'll hear any difference the most. I believe Jerry Fessenden told me that most of the wound strings have .014 cores, so I would have thought they would drop about the same on most guitars. There may be something strange going on with the changer (mounting?) or the axle.

Steve,
Good steel players tune CONSTANTLY (with their bar) and usually don't waste that much time fretting (really . . . no pun intended) over tuner settings -- it's either in tune or it ain't.[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 21 March 2002 at 01:25 PM.]

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 23 Mar 2002 6:30 pm

Larry, I'm getting to the point where I don't use the tuner all the time, if I know that my open strings are in tune or close, I go by ear. I am at the point where I can tune most of the pedals and levers from the open strings and harmonics (been watching Blackie, figure I can do it too) BUT, starting from zero, I use the tuner til I hear somethng go out. But there again, I don't have ANY (I swear) cabinet drop on my 2 GFI's and I tune about the same as Mr.Bradshaw.
Steve
who said tunings fun ain't it???[This message was edited by Steven Knapper on 23 March 2002 at 06:34 PM.]