Harmonics: tube vs. solid-state

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 10 Feb 2002 3:18 pm

Hello,

I played through a friend's Twin Reverb recently and loved the tone and the way harmonics popped out effortlessly. Don't know what speakers it had in it. The amp had a master volume and a hint of distortion on some notes (sounded like low-watt speakers, I didn't check what brand). I had the master up and the pre backed off for a "clean" tone.

I play through a Peavey 400 most of the time (got a 1000, too - ick), is there a stompbox that I could use to at least get the happenin' harmonics? Before I blow money on a Twin?

thanks,
Drew

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www.drewhoward.com

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Feb 2002 5:32 pm

I don't think so.

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 10 Feb 2002 8:25 pm

Drew-Tubes will bring harmonics out a bit, as will some distortion or compression. My Fender Amps seem to make the harmonic content more present without any noticable harshness.

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 11 Feb 2002 7:27 am

Does This need to be moved to electronics?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 11 Feb 2002 9:04 am

I personally wouldn't go back to a tube amp for several reasons. For example, they are really HEAVY. In addition, unless your amp is miced, you will find rooms or occasions where even the mighty Twin will let you down in the headroom / clean power dept. Oh, and did I mention that they're really BLOODY HEAVY? I might be able to get by in most clubs with two Twins or a Twin in stereo with a SS amp, but that's just more than I care to haul. I've tried one alone and it didn't cut it for me.

I love using tube amps in the studio. I have a BF Bassman that sounds great at about 2 or 3, but suffers from headroomitis at 4 or above. As mentioned on another thread, it's the best distortion on the planet (but what do you expect out of 45 watts?).

I still maintain there's no such thing as a perfect amp OR a perfect guitar. Just my opinion.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 Feb 2002 9:26 am

Moved from 'Pedal Steel' to 'Electronics'.

Different kinds of tubes bring out different elements of the harmonic sequence. The "English" sound of the EL84 is quite different from the "American" sound of 6V6/6L6, for example. Which is better for steel? I used to say 6L6, but lately I've been enjoying the EL84's.

As for using a stomp box to punch up harmonics - good luck! I've never found one that did that. I suspect that the real problem is either your guitar or your technique. Having good electronics helps, but you can't amplify something that isn't there in the first place.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Hamilton Barnard · Post by **Hamilton Barnard** » 11 Feb 2002 3:50 pm

Bobby, an EL84 is an American 6BQ5. You're right, they both sound great.

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My Marshalls.

Michael Frede · Post by **Michael Frede** » 11 Feb 2002 4:01 pm

Hey Larry!Did your Twin Reverb have JBL's in it?

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 11 Feb 2002 9:26 pm

I just got a '69 Twin. I put all new capacitors in it, many of which are the film/foil audiophile/tube-amp-nut kind and new tubes. I also pulled out the old 2-12" baffle and built a single 15" baffle, had a local amp restorer cover the baffle with vintage looking grillcloth, slapped a fender logo on it, and threw a JBL D-130 in it. I think my Nashville 1000 is for sale now. Man oh man, how sweet the sound. I agree that 80 watts isn't quite enough for the super loud/clean Peavey thing, but me, I dont play that loud or clean so it's quite perfect. That sound of an overdriven twin reminds me of the old Lloyd Green or Tom Brumley tone. I just saw Brumley in Branson and he had 3 Twins from the sixties and a pair of Bassman reissues with 15" speakers. All his speakers were JBLs and all his amps were fender tube amps using 6L6 power tubes. You know my Twin with only a single 15" speaker is barely any heavier than my Nashville 1000.

Regarding the harmonics thing, well the Twin, as clean as it is, is still a raw tube amp and it has that even-ordered harmonic distortion thing going on even when in its clean range. I think that these musical overtones do help picked harmonics sound more present and smooth.

And one more thing about the old Fender amps, when well maintained, they are as reliable as anything out there. Many run for 30 years before crapping out. And if they crap out, they're easy to restore and add another 30 years of life to. They dont make 'em like they used to.

Brad Sarno
St. Louis
Mullen U-12/Fender Twin/D130

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 12 Feb 2002 7:00 am

Michael,
In the 5 or 6 years I used a Twin I tried several speaker combinations. It was a 1964 BF 85W amp that came with Utah 12's. I blew one of those early on and everybody told me to replace it with a D130 (may have been a D130F). I had a new baffle board built, mounted the JBL, and it sounded GREAT.

Problem was, I was playing with a hot Tele player, also through a Twin. My experience is that if you get into volume wars (we were young and foolish

) between a Tele and a steel, both through Twins, THE TELE WILL WIN. I kept the JBL for a couple of years and was always nagged with the absence of headroom.

In the mid 1970s I bought a Session 400 -- original design -- one of the first with BW speakers. It had the sound I was looking for, and was much lighter, but there was also something missing (the warmth from tubes). I've never quite satisfied that need for the tube fuzzies, but I usually get my 'fix' by using a tube preamp into my MosValve 500. That comes pretty close and headroom is not a problem. Most of the time, I still play that '70s Session 400 and it still sounds great.

I will reiterate: There is no such thing as a perfect amp. (at least, I haven't found it) I play in a 4 piece band that plays mostly clubs. We don't mike anything, but if I could rely on the PA to reinforce a tube amp, I might consider using one again. I'd still keep my Session 400 though.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 12 Feb 2002 8:52 am

You can't have it all buy you can come close. As Larry suggested, try a tube pre-amp with your choice of power amps, the Mosvalve is a good one.

Having tried several of the P-brand amps, I was never satisfied with the tone. None of those, to me, were sweet enough sounding. (I played thru a Fender Vibrosonic for many years.)

About two years ago I got a Tubeworks Real Tube 2 pre-amp and haven't looked back. It seems to get results with several combinations of rigs. I've used it with my Nashville 1000, with my Peavey Musician Mk. IV head and, currently with my G-K Micro amp. The last two I run thru a 15" EV speaker cab. The G-K micro is a little underpowered at 120 watts, but the tone from the pre-amp wakes it right up. It's about the size of a cigar box and weighs around 8 lbs.

I think the key to success is miking the amp and positioning it so you can hear it above the mix. If you're miked up, just point the speaker where you can hear it above the other guys and keep the volume under control.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Feb 2002 8:56 am

I will also chime in here and say that the best "tone" I ever had was with a Twin Reverb with a D130-F speaker. It was great. I used that combo for a long time, but the D130-F speaker is not very efficient, and it's also quite easy to "fry" when pushed with the C6th tuning. After cooking that speaker a couple of times, I opted for an SRO15, and found that it gave the amp much more headroom (due to the increased efficiency). Nowadays, I use a Peavey most of the time due to the lighter weight, and the better effects, but the sound still isn't "great" (the LeMay mod helped a lot, though).

All this to say that the best tone in the world is of little value if no one but you can hear it. Today's music demands more power, and if you mike a "great" sound, you often wind up with only a "good" sound (or less). You're at the mercy of both the PA system and the sound man when you rely on the miking strategy...which is why I mike my amp in only the largest of venues.

Tone is useless without power (except in the studio).

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 13 Feb 2002 1:25 pm

Well, true, it's useless if no one can hear you out front. Of the last five gigs I've played in five different rooms, the acoustics and stage layout is unique to each. Hence, the sound will vary in each. But that's my point, when the onstage sound isn't within the parameters of acceptability, at least for me, the playing suffers.

If my rig or amp doesn't sound to me I don't play my best. That's why tone matters. Your amp is an instrument you play just as you do your guitar.

Most professional sound crews can mix the sound right out front. You're at their mercy so be nice to them. In my experience, if I assume they won't get it right and count on my amp to deliver the sound out front, I may be too loud for people in front of me. If my amp is directly behind me pointed at my back, it will likely be too loud for the person standing next to me. Too many times I've played on stages where I couldn't hear myself until I was too loud. I'm not into volume wars with lead guitar players. It shouldn't be necessary. While I agree, less is more where equipment is concerned, if possible I like to mike my rig and make sure I can hear myself clearly at a reasonable volume.

Back to the tube vs. solid state issue: I agree that SS amps have a "sweet spot" as do tube amps. Most Peavey amps I've played do sound pretty good at onstage volume, that is to say a lot louder than you'd play it at home. Again, this varies depending on the room ... considerably.

Everybody hears sound differently, I like the tone of certain acoustic guitars over others. To me, there are big differences and this applies to amps much more than between various brands of steel guitar.

--JR