TONE

[Nelson Kempf]

Hi all,
I am about 3 years into my pedal steel journey and am finally feeling like I want to play some live music with it. Trouble is my tone...
I have an Excel Superb S12, A Boss Katana amp, and a Morley volume pedal. It's too bright for me. If I roll the highs off I lose volume and clarity on those high strings, which I also don't want. I really love the tone of Curly Chalker on his "Big Hits on Big Steel" ballads. Warm and full. I don't want the bright lead tone of a lot of country players, I lean much more toward jazz.
Anyways - I have read extensively on the Forum about this topic and these things come up a lot: swap pickups (El-66 maybe?), Sarno Earth Drive, Sarno Black Box, Hilton sustain, Peavey Session 400 pedal and so on... I can't drop a bunch of money, but if I take one (2-300$) step in the direction of warming up and elevating my sound, what should it be first? (Not looking for picking too close to the bridge or other technique suggestions...)
Thank you!

[Noah Miller]

I would look into an EQ pedal first. A Boss GE-7 is about $130, doesn't require any modifications to the instrument, and is highly flexible.

[Bud Angelotti]

Keep your eyes open for a used peavy bandit or similar. Really inexpensive but might be what your looking for. I used to use a morley volume and they are great but I think you need a proper volume pedal.

[Nelson Kempf]

Noah, I do have a graphic eq just like the GE-7. I'll spend more time playing with that. Thanks!
Bud, I realize I'm overdue for a volume pedal... they're just so pricey! Do they have an effect on tone? I hear the Hilton pedal does quite a lot in that regard.
Thanks guys!

[Tucker Jackson]

Hi, Nelson.

A pot pedal is going to be slightly darker than an active pedal, like a Hilton or Telonics. If you like Curly's tone, it would have been a pot pedal, which is what everyone used back in the day. But you can acheive the same thing with an EQ change.

If you are going to swap pickups, I don't know what you have now... but an E-66 is the brightest humbucker pickup I'm aware of. So, probably not that one.

The speaker makes a big difference too! You might want to audition some other speakers or amps, if that's an option.

I tamp down highs with a Freeloader (or a tube-loaded Black Box, if using a solid state amp).

[Dave Grafe]

The Excel Superb ships with a very decent pickup, if you can't get an at least gigging-acceptable tone from that one changing it won't help. I have friends who swear by their Katana amps but none who use them regularly on stage, I much prefer analog signal chains so advice on that will have to come from elsewhere.

As mentioned above, passive volume pedals affect high frequencies but still as many of us as not prefer the sound of a pot pedal over that of active pedals. The higher impedance of steel guitar pickups makes for a poor match with 250k pot pedals (Ernie Ball, etc.) intended for six-string guitars, 500k is the standard for pedal steel guitars. The Morley is definitely not your best choice either, definitely try some other, steel-oriented options - Goodrich, Hilton, Telonics, etc. - to see which best serves your needs, as VP expression is a huge part of getting a usable sound.

Tucker has a very valid point also, outside of your hands your SPEAKERS are the single greatest element in reproducing the tone your hands are generating. JBL's and BW's are legendary but EV, Eminence, Jupiter and Telonics are among others with excellent products for steel guitar players. Try your rig with other speakers to see how much different everything sounds with this one change.

I don't recommend adding EQ devices as they add noise and phase distortion, clouding your sound without solving the fundamental problem of what your hands are doing and what your amp is making of it, it's a band-aid not a cure.

Bottom line is don't spend a single dollar until you have explored these options. Meanwhile practice with the amp turned off and pick it like you mean it, getting good tone without an amp will improve your tone more than anything else when you turn the amp back on.

[Gary Newcomb]

Hey Nelson! I got a Goodrich matchbox as part of another purchase and I now shudder to do a gig with out it. The impedance knob and really help dial out the shrill. I love it!

[Dale Rottacker]

A Volume pedal certainly can have an effect on Tone. I know very little about the Morley pedals, but they may be better suited to Electric Guitar than to steel. I'd encourage you to find someone with a pot pedal to try out and see if that makes the difference you're after.

Short story ... I needed a new pot for a Goodrich pedal I had that a Claracet? Pot in it that was JUNK ... I ordered a Dunlop .470k pot, and somehow got a pot that was .250k... It was super dark sounding and initially had me thinking I'd soldered it backwards, but eventually found it wasn't me it actually was having received the wrong pot. So YES, a pedal or the wrong pot can make a difference. BTW, the .470k Dunlop pots are todays "Go To" pot ... Allen Bradley's are no longer available, though I still have one (.500k) in a Sho~Bud pedal I've had since the early 70's and it sounds great.

Good luck sorting things out.

[Donny Hinson]

Nelson, pedal steels are naturally loaded with mids and highs (the result of having just a bridge pickup), so you might try lowering the mids all the way down (or nearly so), and then regulating your overall tone with just the bass and treble controls. This is known as "scooping the mids". Try it with the bass up fairly high, and then use the treble to control the harshness of the higher strings.

[Fred Treece]

The Katana has both a Graphic and Parametric EQ included in the Tone Studio software. Once you find a setting you like, it can be added into the System settings, in either a global input or output location.

If you have a GF-AC footswitch, your volume pedal can plug into the FX input on the back of it. This will place the VP after the preamp in the signal chain, which will allow full preamp tone and gain at any volume pedal position.

The Sarno Black Box has become an essential part of my Katana setup, for that totally tubular impedance thing it does.

[Nelson Kempf]

Thank you guys so much for all the feedback. I suspected I would hear preamp / amp the most - not volume pedal and speaker. Live and learn! I will try some different speakers out, add a black box to the purchase list and start saving for a volume pedal. Fred, thanks for tip about the Katana software, I did not even know that existed.

[Keith Parker]

Not sure what your setup is, but I would look at Joe Rogers cabinet IR's. You can get a Sonicake IR for $50-$60 on Amazon, and then try his cab sims. The different cabs, speakers, mic and mic placements can tailor your sound exactly how you want it. TBH - I'm not an "amp guy" so I don't know all the different models and combinations. But for $35 the vintage IR pack will certainly get you where you want to be.

[Robert Parent]

Before buying anything, I would connect the Katana software and investigate the built-in EQ and simulation effects. The Katana has both a parametric and graphic EQ along with several guitar simulation modes. There is a boatload of features to mess with.

Robert

[Rich Ertelt]

Before buying anything, I would connect the Katana software and investigate the built-in EQ and simulation effects. The Katana has both a parametric and graphic EQ along with several guitar simulation modes. There is a boatload of features to mess with.

Robert

^^^
I bought a Katana used, and I need to use the software, as there are hidden settings that you can't get to without it, If I remember, one was a master EQ. There were some "odd" settings the previous owner had set, and I would not have been aware of them without the sw, as they were not accessible otherwise.
It maybe be setup in a way that is not what you need.
Mine didn't last long, sounded good at home, but didn't really cut it with a band, but I know some people like them.

A Moyo pedal is only 150 bucks on Reverb, and I've actually gone back to it, over my Telonics for the time being. Both are great, both are different, Moyo is cheap.

[Patrick Huey]

Hi, Nelson.

A pot pedal is going to be slightly darker than an active pedal, like a Hilton or Telonics. If you like Curly's tone, it would have been a pot pedal, which is what everyone used back in the day. But you can acheive the same thing with an EQ change.

If you are going to swap pickups, I don't know what you have now... but an E-66 is the brightest humbucker pickup I'm aware of. So, probably not that one.

The speaker makes a big difference too! You might want to audition some other speakers or amps, if that's an option.

I tamp down highs with a Freeloader (or a tube-loaded Black Box, if using a solid state amp).

Your Boss should have an effects loop. That is where I would highly recommend putting your EQ pedal … putting that pedal in front of the amplifier is only going to alter your guitar tone… Putting it in the effects loop you have the opportunity to Taylor the final sound prior to it being sent into the power amplifier. That way you can equalize both your guitar and the amplifier..

[Pete Burak]

FWIW, I don't think it's the Excel Superb S12. I have never had any desire to change the pickup on mine, or any of the many other Excel Superbs I have tried out.
Whenever I use a Solid State amp I always use a Sarno Black Box with the knob on the side that affects tone. This makes it very quick and easy to fix an offending high-end undesired tone.
Nobody in the Steel world uses a Morley v-ped, so I have no idea what that is doing to your tone. But if you bypass it (go straight from Steel to Amp), it should be easy to hear if it is coloring your tone in an undesirable way.
I have never heard a Katana amp, I hear folks say they sound good, but I've never seen/heard anyone gigging on a raucous bandstand with a Katana amp (my guess from just looking at one in a store is, they don't have enough Low End).
If I were you I would start asking my local musician buddies to try out their gigging gear with your Steel rig. Talk to other local gigging Steel players about their gear if possible.
Getting rid of too-much-treble is usually pretty easy.
Are you using a 12 for your high G#? 12's are not as treble-ee as 11's.

[Patrick Huey]

Katana is primarily a modeling amp. I remember Jody Cameron showed up at my hotel room with one of those a couple of years ago. He was taking back to the music store because it just didn’t do the trick. He had stopped by to purchase my Nashville 400. lol

[Larry Dering]

The Katana can be made to sound very good f you use the app and taylor the mids to your liking. It has good effects and enough power to play in a band. It's not my favorite amp but I have used it on stage performance and gigs.

[David Wren]

Nelson, interesting thread.

I think the Katana can be dialed in (have one, but seldom use it), and certainly the Excel PSG should have a fine sounding pickup.

All the above advice seems to be helpful... I especially would suggest changing to a volume pedal designed for PSG. Occasionally there are real good VPs offered for sale here on the forum.

I also would suggest one thing to try. Look at where you are striking the strings with your picks... if highs and mids are too bright, try moving your right hand towards the nut and further away from the bridge. A little movement can have a huge effect.

Best of luck.

[Fred Treece]

Right, Larry.
If you are looking for the familiarity of Fender Twin tone, or Nashville 400, or Little Walter, you’ll have to get one of those amps. But if you dial in your tone on one of those and set it up next to a Katana, it’s possible to get something comparable on it.

There are so many variables to consider, nailing down what speaker will improve the sound of your guitar with your pickup and your amp and your ears is a guessing game even for the highly educated.

What the Katana line needs is a PSG-specific Joe Rogers type scientist, working out the EQ’s and IR’s and FX’s and IOU’s of this great little amp. The tones are in there.

In fact, you can do this yourself…

If you take a line out of the “Record/Phones” jack on the back panel and run it into an FRFR powered speaker or PA System, the Katana speaker will mute and the internal impulse response will be output from the R/P jack. There are 3 different IR’s to choose from Tone Studio.
I like the “Blend” for live playing (from the Line Out, not the Record/Phones). I was shocked at how good it sounded when I first heard it, because up until then I had been mic’ing the speaker with less than stellar results.

Of course, you can continue tone-shaping either with the Katana controls or recording/PA console. Keep in mind, the Katana controls will effect both the sound from the physical speaker in the cabinet and the IR from the line out.

So that’s just yet another option. You could go direct to PA and adjust your monitor on stage, or if you’re recording, that IR is what you will hear in the phones. In just about every way, the Katana is an affordable Kemper or ToneX in its own mutable speaker cabinet.

[Nelson Kempf]

Man... So much helpful info here. Thank you so much. Out of all the reading I've done on here and elsewhere I have never heard about the Katana software. I will definitely start there and see how it goes. Black box is on the list for sure. But I think I will start by purchasing a new volume pedal.
Is it worth getting a vintage Goodrich (I've seen some good deals on those) or is dealing with old pots, etc a pain?
The Moyo pedal looks really interesting.
Anyways. Much appreciated y'all.

[Dale Rottacker]

Man... So much helpful info here. Thank you so much. Out of all the reading I've done on here and elsewhere I have never heard about the Katana software. I will definitely start there and see how it goes. Black box is on the list for sure. But I think I will start by purchasing a new volume pedal.
Is it worth getting a vintage Goodrich (I've seen some good deals on those) or is dealing with old pots, etc a pain?
The Moyo pedal looks really interesting.
Anyways. Much appreciated y'all.

Nelson, changing pots is a minor inconvenience, but a pot pedal is your cheapest route. Goodrich and Sho~Bud pedals come up used fairly often. Telonics are spendy, but if you’ve got one you’ll probably never consider selling it, and to me the only downside of them is the Wall wort, same thing you’d find on a Hilton.

The Black Box is great… I use mine to actually put a little sheen on tone, but the Vari knob let’s you dial in a darker or brighter tone.