D8 ...use A6th and E13th ?

[Larry Lenhart]

I am not new to lap steel world but am curious what you guys use. I like to play western swing and have used A6th a lot, and dont find it a disadvantage to not have C6th...unless I am missing something. As far as the other neck I was thinking some form of E tuning.

I am sure this topic has been discussed many times on here, but just curious to read different opinions....I am open and willing to try.

Thanks in advance for posting your preference and hopefully why you like it the best.

If its an old topic on the forum, let me know the link and I can read it.

[Pete Martin]

I started this way, but using Leons E13 tuning as I transcribed a number of his tunes and found I liked it better than orher E13s I tried.

After a few months of normal A6 I read about Hawaiian Billy Hew Len would sometimes tune his lowest 2 strings in A6 up a half step each to G and Bb. I REALLY like this as it now gives 2 dominant seven chords (the I7 and VI7) plus a full 4 note diminished chord with 2 tritones. After a few days, I replaced these 2 strings and made them an octave higher. I also have recently found I can play the Barry Harris major sixth diminished chord scale in two octaves. This is what you would hear bebop era piaists and guitarists like Wes Montgomery playing for chord melodies.


I have a T8 where I have this A6Gdim tuning on the closest neck, Leons E13 on the middle and normal A6 on the outside neck as I rarely need it. On my D8 I have just the first two.


If anyone is interested I can post the 6dim scale pdf I made here.

Pete

[Bill Leff]

I'm interested to see the PDF. Thanks!

[Stephen Robinson]

Yes pdf please

[Pete Martin]

Here are 2 octaves of the D6dim scale.

D6Dim Scale A6HighGdim.pdf

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[Pete Martin]

As I just worked this out, I've only tried it in a couple places in tunes. I have been improvising with it and like it.

Here is the first half of the jazz standard Secret Love in Eb. Tried to add a MIDI file but the forum wouldn't let me. PM me with your email address if you want that.

Secret Love Part A A6HighGdim.pdf

[Paul Seager]

On my 2nd neck I have a derivation of B11 with E & G# on strings 8 & 7. Low to high this gives:

E, G#, B, D#, F#, A, C#, E.

B11 is naturally chord-rich and by extending it, one has ii, V, I chords in every position (plus all the usual B11 chords). Take a Fats Waller song like "Ain't Misbehavin" and this tuning gives you all the chords. The huge plus is strings 1-4 are same as A6 so if you make a habit of learning melodies on these strings, the second neck becomes a chord neck without having to relearn melodies or even solo patterns.

I have a T8 with an E13 on the outside neck but I only use E13 for that "big band shout" effect. Everything else is A6 or the B11 variant.

Btw, I use the same string gauges for all tunings; Give it a try!

[Tim Whitlock]

Following.

[Tim Toberer]

I read about Hawaiian Billy Hew Len would sometimes tune his lowest 2 strings in A6 up a half step each to G and Bb. I REALLY like this as it now gives 2 dominant seven chords (the I7 and VI7) plus a full 4 note diminished chord with 2 tritones. After a few days, I replaced these 2 strings and made them an octave higher. I also have recently found I can play the Barry Harris major sixth diminished chord scale in two octaves. This is what you would hear bebop era piaists and guitarists like Wes Montgomery playing for chord melodies.




Pete

This is a cool idea! I play pedal guitar almost exclusively now , but I played around with the Billy Hew Len version it really opens things up for Dominant sounds. It isn't something I would always use cause it is quite dark, but an easy retune back to A6. I think Mikiya Matsuda uses the Hew Lin version or something similar. I tried to find recordings of Billy using this tuning and couldn't. I would love to if anyone can pinpoint them.

This is it even though he is playing a pedal steel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1qBoo1 ... rt_radio=1

[Michael Kiese]

I am not new to lap steel world but am curious what you guys use. I like to play western swing and have used A6th a lot, and dont find it a disadvantage to not have C6th...unless I am missing something. As far as the other neck I was thinking some form of E tuning.

I am sure this topic has been discussed many times on here, but just curious to read different opinions....I am open and willing to try.

Thanks in advance for posting your preference and hopefully why you like it the best.

If its an old topic on the forum, let me know the link and I can read it.

Aloha Larry,

Just adding my 2¢...

C6, A6, and B11 are all so close to one another. Through experimentation with string tension calculators, and trial and error, I found that I could use the same set of strings and go between C6, A6, and B11 on the same neck, while maintaining around 23 ftlbs of force +/- 2 lbs.

So don't feel like you're stuck to A6th on one neck. You can easily go between C6/A6/B11 using the same set of strings.

It's there for you to use, so use it. Some keys, like D are easier to play in A6, because it's at the 5th fret. In C6, D is at the 2nd fret. E is at the 4th fret.

Whereas keys like F and G which are really common, are easier to play in C6 (5th and 7th frets). In A6, F is at the 8th fret (that'll mess with your eyes, lol). And G is at the 10th fret.

I personally prefer to just bring one single neck in C6 and play everything in C6 without retuning. I mostly sing and play steel backup for myself, but I try to play 1 or 2 songs per set as a steel instrumental to feature the steel. I'll retune between set breaks, so if I want to play Sand or Mapuana or anything in B11 in the next set, I'll switch to B11 and keep the steel in B11 for the whole set.

If I'm a sideman playing steel in another group, I'll switch between C6 and A6 more often. Some singers REALLY like the keys of D and E. A6 is perfect for that.

In any case, it's your end use case that matters and the keys you'll play in the most that matter. Tunings are just tools, so use 'em. One tuning doesn't "sound better" than another. They all sound great, and it's up to the player to bring out the best of that tuning.

Enjoy!

[Michael Kiese]

On my 2nd neck I have a derivation of B11 with E & G# on strings 8 & 7. Low to high this gives:

E, G#, B, D#, F#, A, C#, E.

B11 is naturally chord-rich and by extending it, one has ii, V, I chords in every position (plus all the usual B11 chords). Take a Fats Waller song like "Ain't Misbehavin" and this tuning gives you all the chords. The huge plus is strings 1-4 are same as A6 so if you make a habit of learning melodies on these strings, the second neck becomes a chord neck without having to relearn melodies or even solo patterns.

I have a T8 with an E13 on the outside neck but I only use E13 for that "big band shout" effect. Everything else is A6 or the B11 variant.

Btw, I use the same string gauges for all tunings; Give it a try!

Great advice and insight Paul! Mahalo!

[Michael Kiese]

I am not new to lap steel world but am curious what you guys use. I like to play western swing and have used A6th a lot, and dont find it a disadvantage to not have C6th...unless I am missing something. As far as the other neck I was thinking some form of E tuning.

I am sure this topic has been discussed many times on here, but just curious to read different opinions....I am open and willing to try.

Thanks in advance for posting your preference and hopefully why you like it the best.

If its an old topic on the forum, let me know the link and I can read it.

I had another notion to suggest if you're adventurous.

Like Paul Seager said, E13 has a tendency to be less used. Especially for me. It's kind of a trick neck when you want to play a bunch of strum chords for a solo.

So rather than E13, consider C Diatonic. You'd have to be a motivated self learner.

Jerry Byrd ultimately settled on a double neck with C6 (retuned to whatever he needed), and C Diatonic. He'd go between both necks quite often and got lots of mileage out of both. C Diatonic is likely the most unique sounding tunings, and maybe one of the most intimidating. That said, it encourages linear/scalar playing on steel which is a very unique sound not many people possess.

Just a thought. Honestly, C Diatonic even for me is a mountain off in the distance still waiting for me to climb. lol. I've messed with it, but never worked up a tune with it. Once I got decent at C6 and started gigging a fair bit, I never looked back. haha.

Enjoy!