Tables and Charts

[Charles Kurck]

Why does the forum not have a table building feature at the post new topic window ?
This would make it easier to submit copedents and chord charts.

[Richard Sinkler]

Maybe the software doesn't support tables.

[Jim Priebe]

Charles - you are actually asking to be the website builder here. To drop that capability into a page is for too complex an issue for the layman to probably understand. If you find it difficult to do a copedent yourself then save it as a picture (loadable to the Forum) then I doubt you will build a table any easier on the web site. Maybe you are simply talking about convenience.
The newer HTML (web language) standards (HTML5 - it's not that new now) are not meant/designed to support tables and they are discouraged from use (in web page building) - I won't go into why or other detail other than the emphasis now is all about VISUAL.
I find to make them work well on a site the page has to be changed to 4 or 4.1 or 4 with tables compatible and that may not be compatible with other aspects. I have never bothered to look what B0b is using nor do I want to as I just enjoy it already.

Perhaps an answer from an expert web builder can explain it better for the general user (help! Whiz!).

[Wiz Feinberg]

Maybe the software doesn't support tables.

Bingo!

Tables are HTML elements requiring structure and understanding of columns, rows, column spans, row spans, TD and TR elements, Captions, widths,padding, spacing and even css styles and coloring of cells. Our forum could, but does not now offer this range of HTML tags and attributes.

I recommend using an online web space to create HTML content, then simply link to it. Or, do a screen shot, size it appropriately and include it as an image (within our file size and dimention limits).

[Charles Kurck]

Thank you Gentlemen:
I have been doing screen shots but the resolution is grainy compared to the original Microsoft Word documents.
It seems to me that building a table at the forum website would be no more difficult than building it with Word,
sending it to Paint, converting it to PNG, and then uploading it to the forum.
I have things to share, but they are too grainy for easy reading on the forum.

[Jack Stoner]

I have no problem with resolution of screen shots. None of the other computer or recording forums that I visit have options for what you want. They just attach screen shots, like this forum.

e.g. Here is one from my Octa-Capture recording interface unit control panel.

[Richard Sinkler]

You also shouldn't have a problem if you use the "tab" tag and writing out your copedent or other content you would use the table for. Write it out here and copy and paste it to a word doc, or any other word processor,s file, and paste it in here where you need it. Just make sure you have the "tab" tags surrounding the data. I think I saw where you can also use the "code" tags in place of the "tab" tags with the same results.

As Jim said, tables are pretty much gone in the web design world, except for displaying tabular data, like a spreadsheet, and a few other special situations.

[Wiz Feinberg]

Charles;
If you care to look under the hood and see what HTML copedent tables actually look like, their complexity and amount of code they consume, go to my Wiztunes.com/copedent page. Assuming you view it on a computer and not a handheld device, and assuming you have a mouse attached that has a right click button, right-click anywhere inside the page (but not on a "link") and look through the "flyout" options that appear for something resembling, "View page source." When you find wording to that effect, left click on it and a new window will open revealing the actual HTML structure of the web page. Scroll down about half way and you'll get to the copedent tables for my E9 and C6 necks.

Admittedly, my copedents are longer than many others, but the complexity required to allow folks lacking basic HTML coding skills to try to create such a table is beyond that of the forum software. It would require custom coding of an add-on or plugin HTML Tables module.

There are online web page creation tools out there. I'm sure some will let you do drag and drop and choose a table tag set, with so many rows and so many columns. Find one you can understand and try creating a copedent in table cells and rows. When you have it previewing the way you like it, enlarge the browser and do a Print Screen. If you have a graphics editor installed, find it and open it. There should be a menu item named Edit. Click on Edit and find Paste (or Paste as new image) and left-click to paste your screen shot into the editor. Resize as necessary, then see if you have the option to Save as, or Export as a .jpg or a .png file. If so, save/export the file to your computer, then upload it as an embedded image on the forum, in the copedent and charts section.

If I am able to find such an online program and possibly even one that will export the layout preview as an image you can download or link to, I'll let you know.
<hr>

Aside regarding the use of Tables in HTML 5 - CSS 3 and beyond

Copedents require HTML tables tags to display the rows and columns inline, and keep the entire table intact as a combined entity. Horizontal scroll bars are often required to read tabular data wider than one's screen size. There are special CSS styles to account for this on handhelds. I use these styles when I write my own, or rewrite my Webmaster client's existing tables.

Aside from keeping items inline (horizontally and vertically), the best feature of an HTML table is its built-in ability to compress and expand to match the user's available browser width.

Trying to duplicate this layout using positioned Divs will drive a coder crazy and he will start following small animals through mazes. Divs are not meant to replace tables where tables are actually the proper element to use. Tables are not going away for actual "tabular data" presentation. This may change in a future version of HTML (by the W3C), but not in HTML 5.x

[Jim Priebe]

Trying to duplicate this layout using positioned Divs will drive a coder crazy and he will start following small animals through mazes.

So well put Whiz! You probably need to do code to fully appreciate this.

It seems to me that building a table at the forum website would be no more difficult than building it with Word

Actually this is a VERY common mis-conception. We are dealing with two totally different systems/languages/concepts etc, here. One is a dedicated piece of software for one purpose and the other is for web site production (data limit constrictions, compatibility with everything on earth, colour limits and the list goes on).
As a suggestion, doing screenshots into Paint is really so primitive (been around since Windows x.1) .
Try using any one of those great screen capture pieces of software and you'll get great screenshots very easily. Some even have cleanup facilities and re-cropping etc. Ashampoo 'Snap' is a fine example but there are lots of others. So you can use some software 'dedicated to doing one job well'. Save as a .jpg and upload as instructed on the forum.

[Jack Stoner]

The one I posted was a screen capture with the built in Windows Snipping Tool. No other software needed.

Here's another capture from an MS Word Chart, using the Windows Snipping Tool. Just saved the file nothing else was done to it. (This is my combined E9th tuning program for my Peterson HD).

[Charles Kurck]

The table below fits 8½” X 14” paper and the font is Arial 10.
In Word it is sharp and clear.
On the forum it is 377 X 729 and hard to read.
Can this be fixed.

[Jack Stoner]

The forum has a limit on size (800X800) and reformats anything larger down to that size.

It would probably have to be posted in two separate parts to be bigger.

Or have it on a server somewhere and just add a link to the file for full size version.

[Dave Potter]

The table below fits 8½” X 14” paper and the font is Arial 10. In Word it is sharp and clear. On the forum it is 377 X 729 and hard to read. Can this be fixed.

Well, that depends on what you mean by "fixed". With a native resolution of 377 X 729 pixels, there's just not a lot of data to work with. In addition, the text is blurred and poorly defined, possibly a result of the settings in effect when it was captured and saved. Enlarging it makes it worse. As a rule of thumb, images should be saved at the highest resolutions possible. Enlarging images created at low resolutions introduces artifacts and detail loss. They can always be downsized as needs dictate without adverse effects.

[Charles Kurck]

Thanks,
I split the table in two parts.
See the results in the pedal steel section.

[Wiz Feinberg]

Thanks,
I split the table in two parts.
See the results in the pedal steel section.

Charles forgot to post a link to his work, so here it is: Steel Guitar Companies.