Nashville road playing-Where's the money?

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 30 Apr 2003 6:36 am

A terminology question: What is the difference between an artist gig and a road gig? Artist gig - player is a living, breathing member of the band. Road gig - player is little more than hired help. (hired gun, gunslinger) Different terms to describe the same thing: sideman, band member? I guess what I've done (one rehearsal and out you go) were road gigs. Was Ben Keith, for example, considered part of Neil Young's band, or was he on a road gig? Seems most steel players are on road gigs if I follow Jeremy. Let's hear it.

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 30 Apr 2003 7:07 am

Good thread – and lots of great philosophy that agrees with my own. I went on the road at 16; played with the best; made a decent living; got an expense-paid tour of the U.S. and other parts of the world; lived for the moment. But when a friend who played great tenor sax hit 40 he was no longer able to get a decent job even in a “Class C” night club, I decided it was time for a career change. I was 27 at the time, was married and had a daughter. After being out of music for about 55 years, I have gotten the bug again – primarily because of this Forum. I missed music a lot, but I am not in the least remorseful that I left the scene, as I can now survive off of my retirement income and play steel because I like to play steel – not because at 73 I have to play to be able to eat. It’s a young person’s game. There is no greater feeling of satisfaction than being able to create something as beautiful as music – but recognize that it’s addictive. Don’t let it control the rest of your life.

Jeremy Moyers · Post by **Jeremy Moyers** » 30 Apr 2003 7:09 am

Gerald,
When I use artist gig I am talking about getting a job touring with a major lable recording act, be it Tim, Faith, Lonestar, Chris Cagle, etc.etc.etc. When I talk of a road gig it is not particularly with a major lable artist. There are lots of bands traveling around in a van and trailer doing the club scene who do not have record deals, but they are diffinately doing road work. Places like Opry land etc. have groups that tour around the country and play, but that also would not be an artist gig. See the difference? Getting an artist gig means you are a side man to that artist, a hired gun. It means you can be replaced when they want, but you can leave for a better gig when you want as well, although there are jobs where the artist takes good care of their players and in turn the players stay with them for long periods of time.

That is my interpretation of the terms when I use them.

Jeremy

Richard Bass · Post by **Richard Bass** » 30 Apr 2003 11:30 am

I worked the road for 30+ years, came to Nashvile in 1965 and worked with anybody who called Tootsies and needed a lead man. In less than a year I got a steady job with Dave Dudley, 180.00 a week salary if I remember correctly. Went to work for Faron in 1972 and he put me on 1000.00 a month salary. That lasted a few years with some small raises as we went along. Went to a day rate sometime in the late 70's. About 200 a day including record and T shirt money. The leader always paid for the room, travel,clothes. I paid for food and booze. When I add up road work, TV shows, Sessions, and in town club work, I averaged about 35000.00 per yr. It doesn't sound like alot of money but I wouldn't trade a minute of it. How else could a poor boy see the US from coast to coast, every state including Alaska and Hawaii, travel to Europe not once but 7 times. It has been a great ride. My advice to young players is see and do all you can, don't just work the road, or just clubs or sessions. taste it all. Music can be a good career if you watch your money and realise that some day the phone won't ring as often as it used to and you plan ahead. Of course at 25 or 30 yrs old you don't think about getting older. Dare I say it, yes, invest in your future and put money away. I'll shut up now and open a Bud. Richard

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 30 Apr 2003 11:41 am

The "Money" is in a Bank in the middle of Beverly Hills, in somebody elses name! >wknsg< "Big John"

http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels [This message was edited by John Bechtel on 30 April 2003 at 09:06 PM.]

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 30 Apr 2003 1:34 pm

I've been in Nashville for over 20 years now and can't tell you how many benefits I've played for some of our local pickers. Some that have played with big name acts and tried their best to make a total committment to play music only and not work a day job. It's a hell of a life until you get a little older, say around 45 or 50. You can forget about a good retiremnet for the most part. More than likely you'll be drawing SS with no other income. IF you're one of the lucky ones you'll own your own home but most live in rented housing. For the most part you'll be one disaster away from going under if you get sick or have any serious medical problems. You can get medical help free from the City Hospital or get food stamps but it's a tough life to say the least. There ain't nothing fair about life and music can really take you to school. They had to take up a collection for Little Roy Wiggins head stone in the cemetary. Ain't nothing right about that at all.

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 30 Apr 2003 2:27 pm

In 1974 my cousin, who was (and is) a national star, encouraged me to move out to Nashville. He said, "I'll get you in a road band, and you can work your way up from there." I wanted to travel and to play music, but I had spent a little time on the road with him, had seen some of the things that were going on backstage (these were the 70's, after all), and I had enough sense to know that I needed that like a hole in the head. It's just very hard to make the road life compatible with Christian morality and a meaningful family life. I chose the latter, and I have no regrets. The Lord is good and, in my middle years, I've been given a second chance to live out some of my youthful dreams. It's just as much fun as I thought it would be!

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Rick McDuffie
Tarheel Jazz Q-tet
Debbie Elam Band
www.tarheelmusic.com

Richard Bass · Post by **Richard Bass** » 1 May 2003 4:00 am

Frank, you hit the nail right on the head. Sad but true.
Richard[This message was edited by Richard Bass on 01 May 2003 at 05:01 AM.]

Mike Sweeney · Post by **Mike Sweeney** » 1 May 2003 4:12 am

Richard,

I'll say one thing if you tell it about the road or any aspect of being a musician folks can put it in the bank.
Let's go to Gabe's.
Well, Maybe not. It aint the same anymore.
Sweeney

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 1 May 2003 6:50 am

The big road periods for me were mid-80's and mid-90's. I did van tours as a guitarist in a 7-piece R&B band circa 1984-87, playing festivals and dives. I was young, the pay sucked, but the band killed and I got to see most states east of the Mississippi and some west. Plus I've got a lot of stories and great memories. Fast forward 10 years, I did a couple of tours in Europe as a guitarist with a Chicago blues band. Again, festivals and dives. Again, great way to see the world, great crowds and great stories. I averaged $500/wk, which ain't bad when lodging, booze and most meals are covered. The first tour I blew more money because I had never been on the continent and it was one big party. Some bandmembers couldn't sight-see and had to pinch pennies because they had families back home. On the second Euro tour I had to really pace myself because it was two months of one-nighters. If you don't watch your diet and your partying it can get rough. Then you start counting the days until you fly home.

I'd sum it up by saying the younger you are the easier the road is.

cheers,
Drew

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www.newslinkassociates.com
www.drewhoward.com

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 May 2003 10:32 am

Well, here's the flip side from someone who chose not to go on the road. The reason they can get away with paying musicians so little is that so many people want to live out that dream of a wonderful life in music. So if you managed to get to the level that you could earn a decent living at music and do it full time for life, count your blessings - you have lived out a dream many people have that goes unfulfilled.

At the age of 28 (after a couple of previous non-musical careers) I was playing Dobro and pedal steel around the edges in Nashville. People were beginning to ask me to quit my day job and go on the road. I took a hard look at the guys around me who had done that. It's an exciting life when you are young, but unless you make it into that small circle of top players, most guys have to drop out of it when they hit middle age and start over from scratch in some line of work that will allow them to have a family, a house, and to grow old without poverty.

I decided I was already too old and my time for the road was past, and that if I was going to have to start over from scratch I needed to do it soon while I still had some youth and energy. So I gave up music and went back to school. I tried to keep playing on the side for awhile, but the demands of graduate school and getting started in my new career, and being a father were too much, and I my steel went under the bed and didn't come out for almost 25 years.

Now I'm established in my career, the children are out of diapers, and getting divorced gave me some free time. So I started playing again. It's lots of fun, but I will never have the chops the pros have and that I could have had if I had gone full time into music. And it's very frustrating to only play small gigs and not very often, and to not really have the time to work up new material and techniques and get into new genres. On the other hand I have a good career and the house and the family (well at least the best part of it).

So most of us can't have it all. You make your choices and there is some frustration either path you take. It's life. If you've managed to play the music you love all your life you are extremely fortunate. But if you have a good life and can play a little music on the side, that's not so bad either.

John Cox · Post by **John Cox** » 1 May 2003 2:46 pm

to Mike and others
I'm currently in taking a class here at the local comunity college that will probably
pay close to 50K a year or more when I graduate. This guy calls me and wants me to
go on the road and make about $400.00wkly
no SS benifits or job scurity. Although
I like to play(30 yrs now)why should I even
consider lowering myself and my life style
just because others do?
I hardly make any money just playing weekends.

no hard feelings just trying to be honest.
J.C.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 1 May 2003 2:53 pm

I couldn't agree more Rick. I passed up a couple really decent shots at really big groups when I was playing drums but I got to watch the kids grow up and I wouldn't change a thing. I always wish there were some way to split the time up or create more but just haven't been able to manage that. I've got to travel from time to time but always keep it short. There's one thing to say about playing clubs, local clubs on my part. You can drive to the gig, walk in and order a drink and you're at work. It sure beats the guy in the factory or driving the cab but can be tough the older you get. It's just like the factory worker but you come home clean, had a blast playing and probably worked no more than 5 hours including your driving. It's a lot tougher for the married ones I think. If anybody ever had it made, it had to be me. At one time between 1982 and 1987 I had two different clubs that I owned I could play in and be there to watch the business too. I closed one in 1987.The other, The Turf made it until 1998 when the tornado came through and just mowed our business and three or four other buildings down on April 16. I played there until the last day. I never took any money out of the tip jug for playing because I always thought it was the other guys money. I got mine in the cash register and various other places from the business. If we played anywhere outside of the club, I was payed evenly like the rest of the band. If I had to live on playing music now, I'd have a hell of a time of it now and I won't risk it either. Around here The Opry is probably the best steady intown gig (club gig or live playing) around here. Downtown on Broad guys work sometimes 3 shifts to make a decent days pay. Mike Sweeney is getting a good taste of it these days ain't you Mike? The tourist season is right on us now and you can do really good there then. It ain't really that bad but you get to play all day long and it'll make you a lot better player. Sounds like fringe benefits to me.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 1 May 2003 2:58 pm

I ended up with a small fortune by working the road, the trouble is,I started with a big fortune.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 1 May 2003 3:55 pm

This is one of the best threads to come along, in a long time.

What tales!

This is like a bump.

I got more, but don't want to bore, either.

If you would allow me one more -

The ROAD is a wonderful playland/morass....
The ROAD will show you things, even in your wildest dreams, things you could never fore-see.

In a way....it is MAGICAL.

Think for a minute! You, and the rest of the band pull into parts unknown; unpack your gear; tune-up; and proceed to deliver what you hope will be an exciting, thrilling,
uplifting, maybe even educational experience,
for all concerned, including yourself.

I look at this as an unbelievable experience for me, who, at this time, was just an OK steeler.

And I might add, if it wasn't for the beauty of the PEDAL STEEL GUITAR, I would never have been shown this great adventure.

The folks involved were looking for a PSG.

I guess, now, that I keep reading all these great tales.........

I MISS THE FRIGGIN' ROAD....

A gangbuster thread....keep it coming.

Chip

Mike Sweeney · Post by **Mike Sweeney** » 1 May 2003 7:28 pm

Frank,

I was getting a taste of it and having a ball too but, the club I was doing most of my work has closed indefenetly so it's slowed down for me on Lower Broad. But I'm staying busy doing other things in music.
I have got 2 gigs booked down there on Broad for Fan Fair already and maybe a couple others.
I just keep doing this to see what happens next.LOL
Like I said before you can't get in this game for the money. And you can't or shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket.
I'm off to Mountain City Tn. for a few days, I'll catch up with this thread when I get back.
Mike

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 1 May 2003 8:19 pm

So how many of these road jobs were under union contract? The American Federation of Musicians contract is supposed to have clauses for sidemen including retirement deposits and benefits accrued.

Would you be telling me the AFM is a foul organization that in reality cares nothing for its members other than what it can collect for itself?

As a member for 30+ years, I quit. I got tired of pouring money down that black pit of egotists who claimed justice for the common musician.

"Expletive deleted."

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 1 May 2003 10:45 pm

I have a friend who used to tour with Barry Manilow. When ever anyone would hear that, they'd always say.... Barry Manilow??? and he'd say, the pay was great, they stayed at the top hotels wherever they went, there was a travel day, the play date and then a day for tourist stuff. He had a great time and made some money.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 2 May 2003 7:41 am

The answer is that at least HALF the money for the show ($15,000-$25000 plus)should be going to the players! All these "STARS" are doing is ripping off the musicians. Today the average life of a recording act is less than two years. Would you want to plan your future on that? The music executives are just passing people through a temporary turnstyle and taking the money at the top. It has nothing to do with music and everything to do with vanity and videos. The players are getting ripped off big time.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 2 May 2003 8:55 am

This is Capitalism in its role as Social Darwinism, in terms that everyone can understand. Musicians are in a service business, just like plumbers.

The supply of sideman musicians far outstrips the demand for sidemen, therefore the availability of suitable substitutes (other pickers) holds the price per sideman down considerably.

If every other guy walking down the street was a journeyman plumber, with a sign saying "will Roto-root for food," we wouldn't be paying $70/hour for plumbing services.

This is just dawning on people?!?!

Available and suitable substitutes: Your local bar has someone singing George Strait tunes all night long, for little or no cover charge. He's a substitute, but for most concert-goers not a suitable substitute. Therefore, to see the real thing will cost you $40 a ticket... or whatever - I haven't priced a GS show lately.

Saying "musicians are getting ripped off" is almost like saying "hurricanes create economic disaster." Okay, but what, if anything, is anybody going to do about it?

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Musician says to artist's manager "what's my pay scale going to be?"

Manager: "we'll pay you what your playing is worth."

Musician: "sorry, I don't work that cheap."

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Artist to manager: "hey, the new banjo player is pretty good. What are we paying him?"

Manager: "we're not paying him anything."

Artist: "Good. Double his salary."

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 2 May 2003 9:32 am

Kevin, I've been on the road with guys who cop a very poor attitude real quick and jump ship out in the middle of nowhere putting the rest of the band in a bad place. I was a little less gracious with you because you sound like that kind of musician to me and I have learned to not have business relationships with guys who are not down woods if you catch my drift. It kinda makes me pissed off listening to you bitch about things you sound like you have no personal exsperience with yet. There are plenty of star's who have had to file bankrupcy because things on a tour didn't pan out. I don't use the union because of the way your gripping about "wheres the union", who freckin cares? I am kind of a loser in the sense that I don't exspect music to give me the "leave it to beaver" lifestyle. I have been unhappy doing other jobs in life, but music is my best friend and always takes care of me in the end however modest that might be. I have seen people work hard all their life to have the house and cars etc just to up and die one day. Music makes me happy and being a good player and a life long student is something I can take with me into the after life. Real players understand this and live to play, ya get to talk to God by opening up your heart to that bigger harmony out there. Being a side man is just that, stop crying in your beer, your not the one with all the responsibility money wise if things don't work out the way a star has. There is a trade off here and there, if you think $300.00 or $400.00 for an hour and ahalf show isn't fair, then your out there in snobsville and should give up any professional dreams, cause man you ain't got what it takes to live the life.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 2 May 2003 10:25 am

The supply of sideman musicians far outstrips the demand for sidemen, therefore the availability of suitable substitutes (other pickers) holds the price per sideman down considerably.

When I used to work for Warner Bros ( not music, but entertainment biz) they could get a kid out of college who would work 70hr weeks for $700/wk, to break into the movies, and when he didn't want to do it for that rate anymore, there was another one waiting in line for his turn.

As another example, the entry level position is the PA, production assistant, (disposable labor) which typically pays $150/day, and that day could be 23hrs. There is an endless stream of people waiting to get those jobs.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 2 May 2003 10:35 am

Well.

I had a friend that was a Professional Musician that won a Lottery for about a million bucks.

I aked him what he planned on doing.

He said, "I reckon I'll keep playing music til it's all gone."

More power to the "Artistes" among us.

Like Wayne Newton, Les Paul, Chet Atkins, Mr Emmons, and others, no matter what their degree of success, it is only bolstered by their "other enterprises". In some cases, nearly totally enabled by them "if their voices changed."

My working "day jobs" is the only reason I've not had to starve to death, been able to replace my strings every gig, or buy new clothes.

I can, and could take as much time to practice as I need. If I counted on 100-400$/week, I'd be where a dozen other "hobo/artist/purists" are. Living at their girl friends' houses. No thanks.

A quick Scan of individual players' profiles is telling as to what "their take" on "their careers" is.

It ranges from some of the most, if not "THE" most famous simply stating "Retired", to "Heavy Equipment Hauling Hacks" That don't even list "music" as a hobby.

Gotta go. Got off early to go bike riding and load up for a gig tonite. A Long week next week hauling pavers, and then a 9 nite run at Jubitz with two bands.

No rest for the.....

EJL

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 2 May 2003 12:14 pm

Jesse and Herb, I understand your points. I'm stirring the pot a little here. This is a great thread, isn't it? I think that union solidarity would force the issue. I think the musicians union should start striking the stars shows if they are not responsive. Jesse, I just got back from three days in Pennsylvania with an award winning band. I'm not going to trade personal barbs with you because I'm sure that your a great guy. I've been doing this thirty years and play six instruments (also sing fifth interval harmonies). I'd meet you on stage any time. I respect your opinion. [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 02 May 2003 at 01:17 PM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 02 May 2003 at 01:21 PM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 02 May 2003 at 01:23 PM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 02 May 2003 at 01:24 PM.]

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 2 May 2003 2:22 pm

"This is a great thread, isn't it?"

It sure is! Thanks for starting it Kevin.
It should be required reading for all musician wanna-bes.

I'm surprized and impressed by your level of restraint concerning Jesse's comments. Two Thumbs Up!