To Twang or not to twang?

R. L. Jones · Post by **R. L. Jones** » 2 Nov 2002 7:50 pm

GREG I know where you`re coming from. When I first learned to play ,DOBRO, BRAND name only, we tuned in A, would switch to E to play steel guitar rag, and some Hawiian songs. I havent done that in so long i dont even remember how we did it. Tuned in E chord, was a beautiful sound. That was back in 1941, so you can understand what i mean.

R .L .

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 2 Nov 2002 8:52 pm

The difference between Al and every other steel player is that Al is not a steel player who plays jazz. He is a jazz musician who plays steel

Very key point.

I don't think there needs to be any big stars

Absolutely wrong. Of course you need big stars. You always need big stars to help get your agenda across in every area of life, whether it's business, politics, or the arts. Who carries more clout, Steven Spielberg or some first year director out of college? Who carries more clout, Bill Clinton or some unknown democrat in some state legislature? Who carries more clout, Emmons or an unknown steeler? C'mon Bob, this is common sense.

I think this thread is going "NO WHERE". And it should stay where it came from,,"NO WHERE

Why do you feel that way, Jody? I feel that it's a very important topic to debate why the steel isn't more accepted in the jazz community, and perhaps to figure out what could be done about it.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 3 Nov 2002 1:41 am

True story:

I was playing a gig with a band called Crack Sabbath here in Seattle, which could (very loosely) be described as 'jazz'. I just finished a 2 hour set with them and the leader/sax player Skerik (who has an international rep) asked me 'hey do you do any of those Joaquin Murphy steel instrumentals?' Not to typecast the steel, but because he loves Spade Cooley.

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www.tyack.com

R. L. Jones · Post by **R. L. Jones** » 3 Nov 2002 6:55 am

Hi Greg , I understant, thats a road I`ve traveled, also.
When I first learned to play The Hawiian Steel Guitar, seems to me we tuned in "A" , then dropped it down to "E" to play the steel guitar rag, and some Hawaiian songs.
It`s been too many years in there plus the mind is slipping,to remember how we done that.
There were some beautiful soundsmade in the key of "E"

R. L.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 3 Nov 2002 6:58 am

Buddy Emmons,Chalker,Anderson,Morell,Murphey
have taken this instrument to heights that were unknown years ago. The steel guitar is what it is,and it will never change regardless of how you feel. Jernigan is a great steel player as are many others. But the true beauty of the instrument still lies
with the bar and slides.

I have recorded with the "Warren Covington" big band,,recorded with Basie and his big band,,Mitchell Ayere's and his big band.

I was never asked to play "JAZZ" when

you refer to a Jazz sound,,do you mean the Tal Farlow sound? Johnny Smith sound? If so,,then
you need the type of sound that generates that,,a Gibson,,a Stromberg,,a D'Angelico and
make certain you have a "D'Armond pickup where you can get that heavy mid range sound.

The players mentioned above have been the closest to the Jazz thing as anyone has ever
done on steel guitar. Jazz? Bop? Progessive Jazz? what are we talking about here?

I still think its from where I said before.
I have no time for this "JAZZ" I have other thing of importance to do..I was just stopping by,and sorry I did.....GOODBYE.

Are you critiqueing? or what? When you show me where a steel guitar can fit in with the likes of Dizzy Gillespie etc etc....let me know,,,,that will be the day when "Kai Winding" plays "Sweet Leilani" on trombone.

Edited to sound like Freddy Greene.[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 03 November 2002 at 06:59 AM.]

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 3 Nov 2002 8:12 am

I one time got to speak with Charlie Persip,
the great Jazz drummer,,he did the session with Buddy here in NY. He told me he was amazed at what Buddy played on what he reffered to as a "Hawaiian Guitar".

I think the person who could put this thread to rest would be Buddy Emmons,,they dont get any better than he.He Im certain can give you
his own personal perspective on the questions
raised here.

What this world needs is More"BUDDY EMMONS"
kind of talent. Then that question you ask would be answered.

You can sign a "petition" and ask the A&R people and arrangers why Steel Guitar is NOT
considered a Jazz type instrument. I cant answer that,,can you? I did,,,BUDDY EMMONS IS
THE ONLY ONE I CAN THINK OF WHO CAN PLAY WITH
THE BEST OF THE JAZZ PLAYERS.

I like Dougs sound regardless of what others think. Treble? yes a bit,,BUT GREAT nevertheless.

I like steel guitar no matter where or how its played,,. Last comment,I PROMISE YOU. OH
I almost forgot,,I played steel guitar all of my life and raised a family as a musician.

I was called upon by recording studios because they wanted the sound of a steel guitar,I gave them what they asked for and that was what I did.
I was able to make a good living thank
God.

They wanted what they wanted and that was the
"Sound Of A Steel Guitar" as they wanted it.
I got paid for doing what they asked for,,besides Jazz musicians dont work that much

I did.

And thats "NO JAZZ".[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 03 November 2002 at 08:37 AM.]

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 3 Nov 2002 8:38 am

For Jody: A coincidence! I played guitar with Warren Covington ("Tommy Dorsey") at various times in the 60's in the Memphis area. I remember very well: black mink bow ties and green tuxedoes. He always used 17 pieces including his wife who sang. He had the Wahabe Music Co., N.Y., N.Y. HJ

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 3 Nov 2002 11:31 am

I dont know anything about these "Jazz" albums, but in my oppinion, if you are improvising and stretching you music beyond normal song structures, then you are playing "Jazz"!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Nov 2002 12:02 pm

Doug played a Sho-Bud on "Doug and Bucky". He played brilliantly, but the classic Sho-Bud tone seemed odd to me in that context. I imagine that the contrast - Doug's country tone against Bucky's jazz tone - was intentional, and the album does sound good. Still, I would have preferred a darker, "jazzier" tone from the steel.

You can push the envelope in jazz and play with any tone you like, but there is a traditional jazz aesthetic that sells records. Many jazz fans prefer the sound of a hollow body guitar to a Telecaster. In the same way, I suspect that they would prefer the trademark sound of an MSA to that of a Sho-Bud.

I wouldn't say that "twang" isn't allowed in jazz, but I think it's safe to say that it is often discouraged.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 3 Nov 2002 12:19 pm

Thanks for the nice words Jody. Before running the song Cherokee, I asked Charlie Persip to give me a four bar drum intro. He obliged by playing four incredible intros, none of which I was able to count and come in on the first beat. I was noticeably upset with myself so Art Davis (tenor sax) suggested a simple intro that ended up sounding like something you'd hear in a 40's western movie with a band of Indians on the horizon. That embarrassing incident left me thinking my name would be one that Charlie would soon forget, so I truly appreciate his comment regarding the session.

That story is a good example of the caliber of jazz musicianship I speak of that sets the specialists apart from general practitioners. It also illustrates that Charlie's having to play at my level deprived the world of his true potential. I must say though that he took no prisoners on the rest of the track.

As for the topic, I believe a steel tone with a non-offensive high filtering through rich lower mids would satisfy most jazz players enough to not have them turn on you. Beyond that is technique, knowledge, and interpretation of jazz, which are probably the most telling factors.

As Carl once said, jazz is a language that if not spoken properly, becomes quite apparent to seasoned jazz musicians, and I agree. If I were to go to New York and carry on a conversation with a native New Yorker, I would immediately be tagged as a southerner. If I chose to live there, in time, I'd learn the accent, expression, and temperament well enough to blend in with the crowd. The same applies to jazz. You have to live with it every day to make it sound like you belong.

Jeff Agnew · Post by **Jeff Agnew** » 3 Nov 2002 2:52 pm

A few observations...

I generally agree with Mike's point about tone. Like it or not, the standard for a stringed instrument in jazz is a mellow tone. There are exceptions; few would call Stuff Smith's tone mellow, for example. Certainly steel players should not be in a rush to re-string with flat-wounds and hook up to a PolyTone, but the standard bright steel tone will not blend as well in a jazz setting.

the jazz community in general believes that the steel is incapable of playing anything other than country.

Here I completely disagree. That is a sweeping generalization and my limited experiences have been quite the opposite. I spent ten years rehearsing across the hall from one of the finest jazz bands in the country and never encountered anything but genuine interest, curiosity, and enthusiasm in the steel guitar.

Several years ago, I was fortunate to participate in a jam session with a guitar player of some repute named Kessel, and a steel player of some repute named Anderson. For over six hours I never saw anything less than complete respect and admiration from Mr. Kessel at what he heard come out of a steel guitar. (Though I did my best to prove it could be deadly in lesser hands.) He loved the voicings, he loved the phrasing, he loved the sound. He asked many questions about tunings and mechanics and seemed quite taken with the instrument.

Buddy's point is well-taken that jazz has a default "lingua franca", if you will, and that jazzers are quick to detect poseurs. Nothing will earn you scorn quicker than trying to be something you are not. That said, I've never encountered resistance to a steel player trying honestly to learn that language.

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 3 Nov 2002 6:53 pm

I was always under the impression that jazz welcomed the unconventional, the new variation, and even the avant garde. Doesn't the psg perhaps fit that definition when in the context of jazz?

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 3 Nov 2002 7:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I've never encountered resistance to a steel player trying honestly to learn that language.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Except from other steel players, neither have I.

-John [This message was edited by John Steele on 03 November 2002 at 07:31 PM.]

scott murray · Post by **scott murray** » 3 Nov 2002 7:54 pm

Nice to see Buddy "chime in" on this thread. In another thread, he mentions that he thought his tone was all wrong on the 'Steel Guitar Jazz' album.

As for me, I like a little twang in my jazz. Or a lot. I think guitar players like Danny Gatton or Phil Baugh, for example, were obviously fluent jazz players, and they often played twangy. There's nothing wrong with that. Jazz itself is a melting pot of different styles, so why not throw in some twang?
Howard Roberts was an incredible jazz guitarist who described his sound as dirty and swampy. Do those words make you think jazz? Probably not, but it worked for him.

As someone else said, Doug's tone on the record w/Bucky was probably intentional, as a way of saying: this is a twangy steel guitar, but it can play jazz or anything else.
What about the Jernigan LP that features "Naima" and "Black Mtn. Rag" on the same record? Or the one with "Four" and "All the Things You Are" alongside "Orange Blossom Special" and "Long Black Limousine"??? ( the list goes on and on...)

And what about jazz banjo players like Bela Fleck and Tony Trischka? They don't have amp settings to make their instrument sound less twangy. What you see is what you get.

As for jazz players not liking anything twangy or country, Charlie Parker loved country music ("It's the stories, man!") and Miles Davis loved Wille Nelson.

I'll bet that most jazz players would dig the hell out of a tune like "At E's". It's a jazz tune, pure & simple, regardless of what instrument executed it.

The steel is capable of many things, including a less twangy sound. But many times, the person in charge of making the album wants the steel to be twangy. That's what Gary Burton wanted on his 'Tennessee Firebird' album. And I'll bet that's what Doug wanted on the album in question.

I love it!

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 3 Nov 2002 8:05 pm

was always under the impression that jazz welcomed the unconventional, the new variation, and even the avant garde.

I'm sure that there are as many jazz "fundamentalists" as there are county/western "fundamentalists". In order to do the new variation, I think it has to be an extension or expansion of the original and that would require the player to be well versed in the original. Without the depth of experience the new variation most likely would sound like a novelty and probably wouldn't be taken too seriously.

I'm involved in the avante guarde in classical music and if I don't know the history and the linneage of how I arrived at where I am and I don't know the works and the various theories and techniques of the composers, in particular of the last century and really of the past millenium, then I'm a fake.

By the same token, the country stars who are not versed in the "Classics" aren't held in the highest esteem.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 3 Nov 2002 8:46 pm

Ay Buddy
Whats "happening man"?..its easy to loin the
lingo in New Yawk,,all ya gotta do is listen
to me man,,First off,,all the cats hang on
52st street and 6th Ave,,they all hang at Local 802 looking for a gig.

Ya gotta wear a funny little hat with a "pom pom" on top" not that dammed Derby you have.
That thing looks like the Derby Oliver Hardy of the duo "Laurel and Hardy wore",,,man is that the same hat?? anyway get rid of it,it wont cut it back here in the Big Apple.

The lingo is simple,,,like "can you dig it??
but never say that to an "undertaker" they sometimes are offended by that.

When a cat says "later man" he means later,,maybe an hour ,,a day,,a year,,and maybe never,,,you dig what Im saying here man? If you really want to "make the scene,ya gotta dig what Im sayin.

Most of the Jazz cats are always movin even when they are standing still,,its like they are hearin music,even though you may not realize it,,they are working out chord progressions in their heads. So you gotta move with them,,like tapping your foot,,then
you will be a "happening" kinda cat,,you dig?
If someone says you "happened" that means you
are from "nowhere". I dont think anyone will say that to you. It means you "dont make
the scene" like,,,lousy,terrible,no good,very bad. I dont think anyone will say that about you.

Some say "dese" that means "these"
Some say "dose" that means "those"..listen to me and you will make the scene here in NY.

When your'e on a gig make sure you have your "axe with you" no not one one you use to cut tree's down with,,the one you play with,,.Most of the Jazz cats carry their horns under their arm. Thats a symbol of dedication.

If they have underarm odor..I feel sorry for the horn,,you dig that man??.

It would be cool if you could carry your axe
under your arm to show your determination and that you are who you are. Practice this,Its easy after awhile. Careful the knee
levers dont hurt your arm pits.

If you drive your own car,,,and find a parking space,,GRAB IT..then look for an apartment (a pad) name for a place to stay.
Its easier to find a parking space than it is to find a place to live,can you dig what Im saying man? Years ago I was renting an apt
and I was 6 months behind in my rent. The landlord told me to pay up or get out..he said,,,why dont you pay the dammed rent,,I said Im not working,,he said,,Oh yeah?? well
what kind of work do you do,?? I said Im a musician,,,he said "Oh one of those" and said
I thought you guys made big money,,I said NO
Im not working,,he then said what kind of music do you play,,I said Jazz,,he said,,well
okay,I understand,,the hell with the rent,pay me whenever you can.

If your'e on a gig and one of the cats puts
"three fingers up" it means three flats,like
bbb,,,Eb,,,"one finger" usually the first means one # sharp..if you see a middle finger go up,it means you hit a "clam" like
a bad chord or a note that dont make it. If you see the one of the musicians put up a fist,,,it means "OUT". Be careful of the middle finger,,thats the one I always got.

You will see many middle fingers go up in New Yawk even from old ladies trying to cross the street,,I suggest you stop and let them cross,,some of those old ladies pack a
rocket in their pocket. Dont be fooled by the gray hair,some of those old ladies are
"black belts".

If you hang with me,,I can show you around,
I even know the guys with the Rolex "knock off's that look just like the Rolex you have & for $25.00 anyone can look important.

I will get the best of the best jazz musicians and get you guys into Carnegie Hall
or Lincoln Center and the way you play,you will knock em out, the crowd will be standing
yelling BUDDY, BUDDY, BUDDY, they mean you..
not Buddy Rich,,he's dead,,,,they will dig you no end,,,,they will scream ,,MORE MORE,
I suggest you "quit" while your'e ahead..
They will be waving "Confederate Flags" BUDDY
BUDDY, BUDDY..all you do is walk up to the mike and say ,,,,"Aw Shucks" FUHGEDDABOUDIT.

And you too can be a Jazz Star in the BIG APPLE,,,,afterwards I'll treat you to a "flat pie" that means PIZZA PIE. For one slice,,hold up your first finger,,,for two slices,hold up your second finger,,but whatever you do,,,,DONT put up your middle finger,,the Pizza may be a day old.

Later my man...practice what I told you and you too can be a star in New Yawk.

I'll try to hook you up with a few Jazz cats.
Bring your axe,,,you can stay at my pad and I'll show you a few chords I have been saving
hell,,,I dont need them,,Im getting too old.
But you can use them...Leave the Derby home.

Smiley Roberts could never make it here,,they dont dig people who wear their underwear over their pants,,so make sure your
drawers are under your trousers,,can you dig it? Later man.

Jody,,,,a guy that once "Happened"

Dont sweat anything,just leave it to me and
FUHGEDDABOUDIT. Later........................

edited for "cool man" If ya'll think Im a bit whacky,,,,your'e right..my wife has just come home from the hospital after two weeks and Im happy as hell,,Im just having a good time. Later.......If some of you think this is a long post,,,it is,,but I took an extra
few chorus'es because I liked the "twang of my guitar, "Cool Hand Luke" .[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 03 November 2002 at 09:23 PM.]

R. L. Jones · Post by **R. L. Jones** » 3 Nov 2002 8:59 pm

Greg I know the feeling, When I first started playing, we tuned in A ,like old Oswald , then we would go to E to play steel guitar rag and some Hawiian snogs .That was a long time ago . Today I tried tuning in E , naahh , back to good ole G
By the way, is your guitar a Dobro" Mine is a Benoit

R. L.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 4 Nov 2002 12:13 am

Yeah Jody you'ze de New Yawk Board of Ed.
i'm gonna do like the farmer to the tatter:
i'm gonna plant you know + dig you later

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Steel what?

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 4 Nov 2002 4:38 am

Way cool there Crow.

Maybe you can get to the Apple and dig some of this action.

Buddy,,if the crowd stands and hollers

Bada Bing Bada Boom,,,,that means your'e one
of us. Practice,,no cowboy boots,dont dare wear those "Redwing Boots" they are "un-cool"
ya gotta get a pair of "Gucci Loafers" or those "Capezio" shoes the Jazz cats wear,the sole's are so thin you can tell if its a nickel or a dime heads up if ya step on it.

Even more cool is to have "taps" put on your heels,,that way people will know you are a
serious "Jazz Man" those "Jazz Me Blues Shoes

Its a "Gas Man"

You can dig it. I have been diggin it for years,,thats why I carry a shovel on gigs....later man.

Here's the good news,,,,Im off for awhile so
until then,,,If you can make it there,,you can make it anywhere Its up to you New York,New York, TRY IT ,,You'll like it. And
New York will Love you as well.

Hey RL why do you say everything twice?? I heard you once,, why twice?? PS I think all you guys are "weird"

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 04 November 2002 at 07:52 AM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 4 Nov 2002 4:55 am

.....(quote from Jody)...["I even know the guys with the Rolex "knock off's" that look just like the Rolex you have & for $25.00 anyone can look important"].......

I still have my $40.00 "Rolex knockoff", it's just like new, used very little because I only wore it on "paid" jobs. I played lots of bar-slants so everyone could see the Rolex logo on it.....It doesn't run anymore because it needs a battery and all the legitimate jewelers laugh at me when I try to get one of them to replace the battery...it's a conspiracy among them. I hate not wearing it anymore....it went well with my dirty shirt collar and my empty pockets!

www.genejones.com

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 4 Nov 2002 6:00 am

Gene
$40,00 for a Rolex knock off?? you were ripped off,,send it to me,,I'll have it replaced,,I know the cat that distributes them,,he should be out in a month or so,he had a sort of ,,,,well a vacation you know.

Status is what is missing,,,you play great but you shouldn't be wearing a knock off.
Return the knock off to me and I'll see if the cat can lay a real one on me,,one that
fell off a truck,,,you dig it. No Charge.

But you owe me a CD?? is that a deal or what?

Joel Glassman · Post by **Joel Glassman** » 4 Nov 2002 10:35 am

Mike wrote:
************************************
I tried one last time to reach this guy by sending him a tape. He, like the guy at the radio station, refused to even listen. He returned the tape with a note saying that he "knew" without hearing it the tape was no good because the steel can't play either jazz or classical music and that I was wasting my time even bothering to try.
***************************************
I think its a matter of salesmanship. This guy (although he sounds like a jerk) is "playing the odds". His
odds are that you can't play music he'd like.
I play an electric octave mandola, but I tell people I'm a guitarist. (It is more-or- less a small guitar in a funny tuning, and I actually am a guitarist too.) The instrument is suitable for some gigs, and not for others. If people like the demo, then
I tell them what the instrument is.
If I lead with "Hi, I'm an electric octave mandolist"--there would be ~100% rejection.
Though your instrument is heavily customized :^) it is still a guitar.
I'm expecting some flames here...

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 4 Nov 2002 12:43 pm

Jody: Thanks for inviting Buddy !!

Buddy: Thanks for responding so uniquely which could well be your middle name ! Your language point reminded me of an interview I heard once with Louie Armstrong. He said to the interviwer, about jazz: If I have to explain it to you, you wouldn't understand !

Regards, Paul

Dirk B · Post by **Dirk B** » 4 Nov 2002 3:04 pm

I haven't checked in on the Forum for awhile and am really sorry to have gotten in on this thread so late.

Many jazz steel recordings are uptempo bop approaches -- not that there's anything wrong with that -- but sometimes the sidemen seem more familiar with swing and don't seem well-versed in jazz vocabulary/approaches.

In addition to some mentioned albums above I think Bob Taillifer's album "Nouveau jazz" uses an instrumentation & an approach that many jazz steel guitar recordings lack, and is a good one to suggest to a jazz-listerner who is unfamiliar with steel.

We encountered some of aforementioned "jazz snobbery" from a couple of locals before Doug Jernigan's jazz steel concert here in Columbia last year, but all of the uninitiated who attended were blown away by his playing. I like to think we made some converts, and response was so overwhelmingly positive that it convinced us to have another jazz steel concert in 2003 (but more on that later!).

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 5 Nov 2002 9:17 pm

DERBY FOR SALE.

IM a JAZZ PLAYER.

"one size fits all" .

Poop Daddy.