How Much Difference Does Changing Pickups Make?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 May 2003 3:52 pm

Well Bobby, I guess we'll just have to "agree to disagree", then!

But...

What you say seems reasonable, but when we look at what a normal pickup actually does (and I'm speaking of a pickup with only two wires coming out of it), it's function is quite simple. It produces a small A-C voltage from the strings cutting through the magnetic lines of force. That's all it does! Any differences in frequency response are caused by either a difference in the A-C voltage, or the waveform of that A-C voltage...there's nothing else coming out of those two wires! There is no way to "tailor" that frequency response between individual strings unless the magnets are adjustable, or have different lengths, compositions, strengths, etc..

So you see, saying that one pickup has "better string separation" than another might sound logical, but in truth there is no way to measure this ""perceived" characteristic electronically, and no scientific explanation for it. I still contend that this characteristic we call "better separation" stems simply from a reduction in midrange response. The same reduction that results in "improved string separation " in Peavey amps using the mod kits. If the "string separation" characteristic you speak of originated from the design of the pickup itself, a change in the amp wouldn't make any difference. But if the change came from merely lowering the mids (as I contend), then that change anywhere in the sound-chain would produce a similar effect, and I think that's the case.

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 15 May 2003 11:19 pm

I have to agree totally with bOb on the "string seperation".
Sorry, but if it ain't at the guitar first, it ain't gonna be at the amp!

Dave

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 16 May 2003 7:51 am

I'm no expert on this, but there is acoustical analysis equipment that would clearly show the frequency signatures of different pickups, amps and amp settings. A little playing around with this stuff would show what signature corresponds to what we are calling "string separation" and show whether that same signature can be gotten with EQ settings.

Another thing is the "feel" aspect. My p/p single-coil plays louder than my all-pull humbucker. Of course I can just turn up the amp so the listener may not notice the difference, and it wouldn't record. But I can feel the response difference. Same thing with string separation. Maybe I can compensate with with technique, but I have to work harder to hear all the strings on the all-pull humbucker than on the p/p single-coil. It feels very different to me, and seems easier to get a balanced sound, even if the listener can't hear it.

I have a final practical question. I love the quietness of my humbucker, but with my new Hilton pedal the BL 712 is way too bright. I was thinking of getting the 912, but Larry Bell's comments make me think I should try the True Tone instead. How quiet is the True Tone compared to other single coils? And how does it compare in brightness to the 712 and 912? This is a great discussion for me right now. Thanks, guys.

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Student of the Steel, and cheap instrument connoisseur: customized 1970 Sho-Bud Maverick, Fessy S12U, Emmons S12 E9 P/P, Nashville 400, Fender Squire, Peavey Transtube Supreme into JBL 15", 1968 Gibson J50, '60s Kay arch-top, 7-string Raybro, customized Korean Regal square-neck, roundneck Dobro 90C, 1938 Conn Chu Berry tenor sax, '50s Berg mouthpiece, Hamilton upright piano. You make it, I'll play it (more or less)

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 16 May 2003 8:24 am

Dave, Truetones have very little hum. Barely noticeable. They are a GREAT pickup. You are correct about the Lawrence pickups and the Hilton. You don't need a Hilton if you have Lawrence pickups. I got the same response. Thats why I didn't buy a Hilton. If I was running single coils, I would. They are a fabulous pedal.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 16 May 2003 9:31 am

FWIW, I traded away all the pickups I had that didn't have adjustable pole pieces because I like to make adjustments and experiment alot.
I recently traded for a True Tone single coil which is the only non-adjustable pole peice pickup I currently own.

This is niether here nor there, but FWIW, here are Danny Shields comments on the subject from an instruction sheet that came with my Danny Shields CT-12 pickup (a humbucker with 2 adjustable pole peices per string).
The following is word for word from Danny's instruction sheet:

"The pickup is raised to a height that allows between a quarter or a dime to be placed between the screws and the strings [1/8 inch]. I usually opt for a dime but make it fit loose.

Adjusting your pick-up is simple if you remember the following; when adjusting for loudness turn both screws in or out the same (equal) amounts. When adjusting to shade the tone (sharper or fatter) turn one screw in and the other out the same (equal) amounts. So you just need to compensate for your guitars personallity. Go slow, take your time and play it some between adjustments. Recent research demonstrates the brain can not begin to tell sound changes for at least 20-30 seconds. I think in my case that's minutes.

Set the loudness first before starting the tone shading. Usually you pick the louder strings and then bring up the others up to that level. BUT sometimes it works better if you just quiet the loud ones a little. It really depends on how many strings you have to adjust, do the least amount of adjusting you have to do.

Remember that in adjusting the pairs of screws per string, it is tone shading, not like adjusting the bass and treble, more like picking real close to the bridge or up around the 18-20 fret."

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 16 May 2003 10:36 am

I guess I must have had a noisy TrueTone; the hum was loud enough to distract me. However, I think the hum is within the acceptable parameters for a single coil pickup, it's just too noisy for me.
[This message was edited by richard burton on 17 May 2003 at 03:35 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 May 2003 11:32 am

I love the quietness of my humbucker, but with my new Hilton pedal the BL 712 is way too bright.

The BL 712 is designed to match a 500k ohm impedence, which is to say a passive volume pedal. The BL 912 is designed to match the much lower impedence of active volume pedals like the Goodrick 10k and the Hilton.

Donny, the shape of the magnetic field is different from the view point of each vibrating string. When you use a separate magnet for each string, the points of intersection between that magnet's field and the coil are unique to that string.

I'd like to hear an experiment (but I'm too lazy to do it myself). String up a guitar with all .014's tuned to E and a Sierra pickup slot. Mesure the frequency response on each string. If your theory is correct, all of the strings would have exactly the same response, not matter what pickup was used. If I'm correct, each string would have a different response curve.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 May 2003 11:36 am

Richard, the trick is to mount the single coil pickup closer to the strings. That will make it louder and give you a better signal-to-noise (or music-to-hum) ratio. 3/32" seems optimal for me.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 16 May 2003 at 12:38 PM.]

jerry wallace · Post by **jerry wallace** » 16 May 2003 4:27 pm

Richard, email me and I will see if I can help you get the hum down, refund your money, repair or replace the pickup..How long you have had it does not matter..

Jerry Wallace

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Jerry Wallace-2001 Zum: D-10,8+6, "98 Zum: D-10,8+8,Nashville 1000,Session 500 ,Session 400 head only amp,Tubefex,ProfexII, Artesia, New Mexico
http://www.jerrywallacemusic.com

[This message was edited by jerry wallace on 16 May 2003 at 05:52 PM.]

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 17 May 2003 2:30 am

Jerry, that is a very fair offer.
I think that my comments on your pickup reflect my over-critical nature. I think that the hum from a truetone is within the acceptable parameters of a single coil pickup, it's just too noisy for me.
I feel that I have done you a dis-service with my harsh judgement of your product, and for this I offer my apologies.
Richard Burton.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 17 May 2003 4:45 am

I went to BL-710's mostly for better string separation and to cut out the hum.

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1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 17 May 2003 5:42 am

Craig, I can understand why you would want to change the stock Emmons pickups for the 710's, but the TrueTone pickup is much more quiet than the Emmons pickups. I still have stock pickups on my Emmons, but comparing them to the TrueTone pickup on the Remington guitar, if the noise from the Emmons is a 10, the TureTone is a 2. They are that much quieter. t I love the sound of the Emmons, and the hum doesn't really bother me so much, but if it became an issue, I would defintely try the TrueTones on the Emmons.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 17 May 2003 5:50 am

Just so's I know, what pickups are these?
<IMG height=300 width=400 src="http://worldserver4.oleane.com/canardpl ... ickups.jpg">

Donny I lean toward b0b on this one.

String separation is created by each string having a slightly different frequency response in the pickup

The change in magnet structure and characteristics will create a different type of magnetic field or symathetic parallel fields. Hence a different interaction with each string.

(These pickups above have 2 parallel magnets and 2 coils that are summed in some fashion.
2 fields and 2 coils interacting.)

AND the change in # of windings, wire gauge and type of wind pattern relative to those magnets also changes the characteristics of the modulated signal out those 2 wires.

Coils and magnets are inductors, the inverse to capacitors electronicly. Inductors pass lows and caps pass highs.
Changing the windings changes the frequencies it inducts and converts to modulated voltage signal.

So you have variations of field or fields and the difference in frequency band or harmonic bands relative to the strings exciting the magnetic field. Hence the change in tone.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 17 May 2003 at 07:27 AM.]

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 17 May 2003 7:08 am

Depending on the DC Ohms reading they could be Bill Lawrence 605's, 705's or 805's.

John Fabian

Jerry Horner · Post by **Jerry Horner** » 17 May 2003 2:14 pm

I just installed a rewind (TrueTone) that Jerry Wallace done for me and I could not be more pleased. After playing for 53 years and using a bunch of different pickups, I had never had a good combination of highs, mids and lows in one pickup untill the True Tone rewind I just installed. The string separation is incredible. I play a 1974 MSA Classic S12, solid maple and the tone I'm getting is the best I've ever had.
Great work Jerry and my eternal gratitude to you.

Jerry

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 17 May 2003 2:51 pm

Bill, At the time I didn't know about the tru-tones. Bobbe told me the 710's were the ones to get and so I bought. I don't regret it. Can't afford to switch now. The are very quiet.

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1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 19 May 2003 3:09 am

I just tried the ohm meter on the jack and switched between E-9 and C6
E9 reads 18.26 ohms
C6 reads 19.23 ohms,
So which model are these?

I assume the switch, jack and 1' cable have some tiny effect, but not worth un-soldering to test it.

For the record both pickups together reads 9.92 ohms

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 19 May 2003 7:35 am

It looks like you have 705's.

705 - approximately 18K-21K Ohms, 15H inductance
805 - approximately 26K Ohms, 21H inductance
605 - approximately 15K Ohms, 11H inductance
505 - approximately 12K Ohms, 7.5H inductance

John Fabian
www.steelguitar.com

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 20 May 2003 3:43 am

Thanks John, looks like 705's here.

George McLellan · Post by **George McLellan** » 21 May 2003 12:58 pm

Joey, you heard my guitar in Winnipeg, it came new with a E-66 on the E9th neck. I just didn't like the brilliance or "bite". I changed it to the 10-1, and that made a world of differance to my ear as far as the tone.

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SUAS U' PHIOB
Geo

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 May 2003 2:58 pm

Jerry's wirin' up a Truetone for my C6.
Nice to get this good info from you'all.