Digital 8 track workstations?

Kevin Mincke · Post by **Kevin Mincke** » 25 May 2002 10:47 am

I have the Roland VS-880 which is the predesesor to the 890 Mike mentioned. They are a great unit for the money! Mine has an internal hard drive that it records to.

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 26 May 2002 8:07 am

Steve,

The 788 has SPDIF out, but I have a crappy soundcard(next big purchase) with no SPDIF in, so i have to dump to my pc via the mini phone jack. My results have been pretty good so far!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 26 May 2002 8:11 am

And who said this forum was limited to tablature writters and pedal pushers? Matt, which sound card is recommended for the transfer of the master digital download to the PC ?

tp

TPrior/SteelGuitarHomesite

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 26 May 2002 8:47 am

Im really not the one to ask, but i have heard great stuff about the Event Electronics(Mona, Layla, etc.) . Like I said, my weakest link is my soundcard, so when I get some extra cash I will upgrade!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 26 May 2002 9:12 am

I've been researching Multitrac recorders, for home use. Basically looking for a "Hard Disk Portastudio".

I just about sold on the Tascam 788.

Reasons:
<UL>[*]ajm and others comments above.
[*]They have an excellent support forum.
[*]I've heard some very nice tracks made with them.
[/list]

Hoot Gibson says his last recording (and next)is all Tascam 788. He says people think it's a Music Row recording.

Now that I've heard his "For You" and "Talking To The Hand" I believe.

Mike Johnson plays Steel and Joe Caverlee fiddles on these tracks. That helps.

You can hear these tunes at http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/339/hoot_gibson.html

-j0ey-

[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 26 May 2002 at 10:13 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 26 May 2002 11:37 am

Joey, thanks for posting Hoot Gibsons track link, they are great.. just a quick note , all of the V studios have the virtual tracks as sandard within each track and on- board processors for effects. Roland and Boss also have an incredible support forum as well..I am personnaly looking at the Boss 1180 when it finally reaches the stores and the 788 which has also just been discontinued at many stores as well. Does this mean that Tascam will have another workstation out soon as well ?

tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 26 May 2002 at 12:38 PM.]

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 26 May 2002 11:45 am

Tascam discontinued the 788? News to me! Which stores arent selling it anymore?

Strange how fast technology goes.

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 26 May 2002 1:46 pm

I've done lots of web research on the 788.
Haven't seen any mention of it being discontinued. I like the fact that it has been on the market over a year. There's an upgrade chip.

There's always a new/improved unit around the corner. I know people who are still waiting to buy a computer because they hear there's something better about to be released.

If I understand the spec correctly, the 788 has 250 virtual tracks that can be divided among the tracks any way you want.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 26 May 2002 3:25 pm

I don't know if the 788 is discontinued, but it is being discontinued by MARRS music, which is the largest music store in the Charlotte area. It's a fine machine for sure . The spec sheet states 250 virtual tracks per song. Clearly this machine is at the top of my list as well..But I do want to see and play with the Boss 1180 before my purchase, I have read about some CD proprietary issues on the tascam forum and am not sure what it all means, yet..The tascam burners are real expensive and it appears you can't just use any one.Hopefully that is not the case. Also, I have read where the headphones BUSS ( or the lack of one ) is not the typcal Tascam design and 788 users are not thrilled , comments ?
tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 27 May 2002 at 04:05 AM.]

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 27 May 2002 7:40 am

The fact that Marrs is discontinuing selling the 788 is actually an acolade to the quality of the 788. As my understanding of Marrs business practice, is to resell lots of factory reconditioned equipment. The fact that they arent selling it, means that there must be very few unsatisfied customers out there returning their units, or too few occurences of malfunction.

As for the headphone jack location, I have no problem w/ it being in the back. More often than not, my headphone cables are too long anyway. What does an extra 6 inches matter(sounds like an aplology to my wife!)?

The bus issue, I'm not sure about. It seems pretty easy to bus my signal where I want it to go!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 27 May 2002 7:53 am

Yes, it is true that you "must use a Tascam approved CD burner". In other words one made by Tascam. I think that is BS, and that was my biggest worry when I bought mine, but to be honest, the hard Drive is big enough to record tons of music w/out dumping anything. I have the 3 partition HD, and I think that I have over 60 songs on there w/ plenty of room left.

I cnat imagine(beyond a way to make more money for Tascam), why it cant sync up w/ other CDburners. Oh well!!! Corporate greed rules again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 27 May 2002 8:17 am

I think I said it earlier, but somewhere on the Tascam forum there was a post about why their machine is better than some others (in the Tascam writers' opinion anyway).

Review the specs for the BR-1180 carefully. I think that all manufacturers have to make trade offs somewhere due to limits in technology/price/space/etc. I'm not crazy about its only being able to record on 2 tracks at once, but if you're piecing together songs by yourself, and not recording a band live with multiple mics, this shouldn't be too much of a problem. On the plus side, they do have a pretty good size hard drive.

Tascam only supports their CD burner for the 788. But when I was doing my research of several brands it seems that they were all the same way and only supported their own, too.

Also, I don't know about some of the others, but the 788 has two effects processors that are configurable in different ways. At first glance I thought "huh?". But after working with it a while it makes sense.

It might seem like I'm dissing other brands, but I will admit that my exposure is limited. I have, however, heard good things about the Roland effects. As for the guitar effects alone in the various units, I don't have any real serious gripes about the ones in the 788. However, and this is totally a hunch and not based upon any real world experience, I suspect that the COSM models in the Roland/Boss units might be a tad better.

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 27 May 2002 9:07 am

Roland has excellent effects and modeling. But I have yet to find good clean direct electric guitar tones that are modeled. Some of the 788's overdrive tones are killer. I use the TNT LEAD model a lot, and it sounds like a triple tracked distorted lead. The SHIMMER VERB is pretty sweet for a semi clean tone. Not sure, but I think the new upgrade chip has some new effects added. I will let you know when I get the EPROM upgrade.

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 27 May 2002 11:22 pm

my choice for a workstation seems to have narrowed down between the 788 and 890. There seem to be little tradeoffs between them. 788 has impressive harddrive at 7.5 gigs, but has anyone really felt cramped with 890's 3 gigs? How much of that are you going to use up before you burn a master or transfer elsewhere? Bottom line for me is pro sound quality with finished results. Is there an edge here? Im not going to let a few hundred bucks tip the scales over sound quality. Not to say I'm favoring Roland, just trying to get feel in that area. I get the impression Roland efx processors are a bit more desireable. And then again, there burner is a little pricier too..Oh my...decisions decisions.[This message was edited by Steven Welborn on 28 May 2002 at 12:24 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 28 May 2002 2:52 am

Matt and others, when you master on the 788, does it have a stereo master track? or do you master to an external device such as PC or CD ? Some workstations have the ability to master to the on-board master stereo track. gettin' close..
tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 28 May 2002 at 03:53 AM.]

Larry Clark · Post by **Larry Clark** » 28 May 2002 1:38 pm

Steven, Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the VS-890 was a 6 gig.

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 28 May 2002 2:02 pm

Larry, I'm going by the workstation comparison site (musicians buy.com) list by Larry Bell in his response further up. Check it out. According to that comparison 890 has 3 gigs w/comp. 6 gigs would make more sense though. I'll check other sources to confirm that.

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 28 May 2002 3:13 pm

Tony,
I don't own a 788 (yet) but if I understand your question correctly the answer is Yes.

You can direct the MONITOR OUTPUT to Stereo Tracks. They cal this "premastering". I'd call it "mixdown".

I downloaded the "Quick Start Manual" from the Tascam website to find this info.

Their searchable forum at http://209.216.16.19/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=13&submit=Go is also a wealth of info.

I'm close too, but very interested in what experiences others have had with the 788 and it's rivals.

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 28 May 2002 4:50 pm

My 890 has a 6GB drive partitioned into three 2GB sections. I believe this is standard, but since it's possible to exchange the drives check the unit for drive space.

Mastering Tracks - There are not separate mastering tracks, you must use two of the 128 tracks available per song. The catch is you can't play back and record on V tracks played on the same fader, so you have to comp a stereo pair to make room for the mastering tracks. That's why the 1880 has 18 tracks; the extra two are for mastering, but can be used as regular tracks, too. You can mixdown all eight (or four stereo pairs of comped and effected submixes) to DAT, then import that back onto two tracks and master those. Now, once you have your mastered tracks, you can create a CD image right on the 890 including track numbers and space between tracks. Save the CD image and you can burn as many CDs as you want from it (one at a time, of course).

Compression - There are a number of compression schemes to choose from as well as sampling rates. As long as you choose 44.1Khz as your rate, you can master to CD. The greater the compression rate, the longer the recording time. I don't notice any difference in sound using compression.

CD compatibility - There are a number of SCSI CD burners approved for use with the Roland recorders and there are regularly ones on eBay for about $200 - $250. I have a Plextor Plexwriter 4/2/20 which cost $225 and it works perfectly (if a little slowly).

Effects - All the standard stuff like reverb, chorus and delay is great, but the mic modeling effect is worth the cost of admission by itself. Plug in a 57/58 and run it through one of the studio condenser mic algorithms and you won't believe the sweet sound that comes out of that stage cardiod mic. For vocals and acoustic guitars it's unbelievable. The guitar amp models are good, too, but I much prefer to get the sound I want with an amp and stick a 57 right in the sweet spot. You can't really duplicate the sound of moving air.

Connectors - The 890 has only unbalanced inputs (6 1/4") and I prefer to run a mic through an external tube pre-amp (just the cheap ART with a good tube in it) for more control over level. The mic pre's on the Roland sound good, but thier level control is kind of touchy and the external amp provides smoother level control. Also, there are no balanced XLR ins (have to go to 1880 for that). Digital connectors include both in and out on S/PDIF optical and co-ax (though only one at a time) and, of course, the built in SCSI bus to the CD burner.

What else? Oh, the LCD is pretty small, but it is backlit. The LCD on the 1880 is far, far superior; much larger with grapics that are easy to see and very intuitive. And there's lots and lots of button pushing and a pretty steep learning curve. Be ready to put sticky notes all over your manuals!

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 28 May 2002 5:16 pm

My 788 has 7.5 GB.
I believe for a while that they were shipping with 10 GB.
The latest version of software will support up to 16 GB if you want to swap out the drive.
They have a new version of software which I don't believe is released yet which will enable you to install a 64 GB drive.

Rounding things off, I believe that 7.5 GB is good for about 3 hours of 8 track 16 bit recording. (This depends on several things, so this is a general number.) So even with a 16 GB drive, that amounts to a lot of 3 minute hit singles.

You're probably going to be ecstatic with whatever you get, but IMHO you're doing the right thing by investigating first.

Roger Crawford · Post by **Roger Crawford** » 28 May 2002 6:03 pm

A local source told me that the BR8 and the 788 are going to be replaced with units that have a built-in CD burner, a la Yamaha. You should be seeing a price reduction in both units.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 29 May 2002 2:12 am

Yes Roger, correct. The BR 8 is now replaced with the BR 1180 which comes with or without the CDR option plus it has 11 tracks, for drums or mastering I believe. It is a 16 bit ( uncompressed with a 20 gig HD ) machine but I read today that even the tascam 788 when burning CD's converts the 24 bit to 16 bit..go figure..But the reviewer stated that this was not a bad thing..
tp

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 29 May 2002 5:05 am

I did a ton of research before purchasing a DAW. I went with the Roland 2480HD and I got the CDR rack mount. I don't care for the new 2480CD. The hard drive (although is 80G) is not removable and the burner is built in. This means you would have to send the entire unit in to repair either device. The quality of sound is second to none IMHO. I just got a flat screen LCD monitor and I can do every function with a mouse, including editing. This thing rocks!

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 12 Jun 2002 11:00 pm

I just picked up a new Tascam 788 yesterday from Ebay ($650 with no CD burner)) and played with it for the 1st time last night for a couple of hours- way cool~~~ did a CD demo for a friend of mine- backing track from a CD, his vocals doubled, accoustic guitar, and my steel. Real easy- fairly intuitive and great results. It is a good choice for not much money.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 13 Jun 2002 6:35 am

Well in staying with one of my greatest qualities, "CHEAP" ( just ask my wife ) I purchased a BR8 over EBAY with a bunch of stuff and paid $400. I should receive it anyday now but have downloaded tons of resource material for it including a file from Roland which converts the BR8 zip files to WAVE files from the PC ZIP drive. I did have a chance to see and play with the BR1180 and came to the conclusion that an 8 tracker with on board drum machine was not the solution I was looking for. I'm still of the opinion that less is more. I've downloaded several user MP3's done on the BR8 and they are pretty incredible. If I can even come close to some of those I would consider myself fortunate.

I also believe at this time that a machine that has a cost increase of around $300 for an internal propietary CD writer is a big burn as well, especially because most of the new machines have an optical output for CD as standard.

Long term I still have my eye on the Roland machines that hook up to a VGA monitor and use a mouse.

see ya in St Louis !
tp