How to use Hertz on DTR1

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 24 Mar 2002 8:09 am

I think that too many guys on this forum beat this thing to death. Small incremental differences of 2-4 cents mean nothing in the grand scheme of music. There are so many frequencies, overtones and mud floating around a bandstand that agonizing over 2 cents just doesn't matter. You'll end up equalizing with that great little compensator you have in your left hand. That's why I tune straight up to 0, I got tired of pasting those little tuning compensations on my tuner. Life's easier and according to my recordings, I'm still playing in tune. I know I play pretty well in tune because producers and engineers have hired me over other steelers for that reason.

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 24 Mar 2002 8:18 am

John,
I have to agree.
The most important circuit is the "feedback loop" between your Bar Hand and your ears.

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 24 Mar 2002 3:53 pm

John, ya got a real good point there, but my original question was how to use the darn Hertz scale on my DTR-1, I just wanted to know, now I do. As far as my tuning, most of the roots are up 0, 3rd and fifth are flat a little or in the case of the F lever, a lot. It does make life EZer. And Joey, you are correct, the difference in in the left hand, I have to play my AF combo a little sharp.
JOHN, you arn't saying that you tune ALL of your stirngs, pedals and levers 440 are up???
How could that be?? If you do, I'd really like to hear you elaberate on that!!!
Steve

[This message was edited by Steven Knapper on 24 March 2002 at 07:35 PM.]

Tom Ensink · Post by **Tom Ensink** » 25 Mar 2002 2:12 am

Larry,

Thank you for answering the question so extensively. I will definitely try the MO and see how it works out for me.

I have some more questions for you:

i) If you compare your MO with Jeff's chart, one of the differences you see is that in that chart the fifth string is slightly higher than the fourth string. Do you know the background thereof?

ii) the same with the B pedal. I noticed that in Jeff's chart it is tuned 441, while you suggest 440. Is this merely a matter of "feeling"?

iii) yesterday night I was re-reading Winnie Winston's book with the appendix of harmonic tuning written by Tom Bradshaw. Now, I noticed that this was written in 1975 or so. But is this still up to date, especially if you tune up 4 and 5 higher depending on the "detuning factor" while pressing A and B, and subsequently tune the guitar with harmonics?

Many thanks in advance.

Tom

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John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 25 Mar 2002 5:12 am

Hi Steve. Sorry about the left turn on the thread but it was just a reaction to all of the tuning threads over the last few years. For the last 2 or 3 years I've been tuning every pedal and knee and open string to 0 cents on my Korg DT-1Pro tuner. I flatten the G#'s a couple of cents to take the edge off and that's about it. It took a while to get used to it but now I am. It just makes a lot more sense in blending in with the other instruments and to not be fiddling around with tiny incremental changes. Check the search feature for many more comments on this issue. Oh, and to keep on topic, I used to use Hertz on previous tuners but the rack mount and my WT-12 tuner display cents more prominently. [This message was edited by John Lacey on 25 March 2002 at 05:13 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Mar 2002 10:13 am

Tom,
I believe that Jeff derived those settings from his own personal guitar. If they have changed over time, perhaps he started playing a different guitar and its detuning characteristics were different. There is a lot of variation, even among guitars of the same brand, in cabinet, changer, and pull-train detuning effects. Bottom line: either learn to tune by ear and get headphones for noisy places or learn to tune by ear and use a tuner for the same purpose as the headphones. I prefer the latter. Get a guitar that stays in tune well and tuning will become a less significant effort. Some guitars ARE easier to tune than others.

I believe the explanation for the B's being sharp of the E's is that the perfect fifth interval is a ratio of 3/2 and that translates to the fifth being about 2 cents sharp. I ignore that and just tune the B's to match the E's harmonically. Since I only sharp the E's slightly to defeat detuning, I can get away with tuning A's to 440. My objective was to stay as close to Equal Temperament as I could without what Emmons calls the 'pucker factor'.

I wanted the AMaj chord to end up at A=440. With my push-pull S-12, I get 2-4 cents drop on the 4th string when I push A+B. So I tune the E's and B's 4 cents sharp. This allows the G#s to be closer to straight up since the root (E) is a bit sharp. JI wants about -16 cents on the third if the E's at 440, so the truly beatless third would be -12 or so. I go a shade further and sharp the third another 2-4 cents. It ends up between -5 and -10 for the G#s -- -5 if I can stand it. On my all-pull guitar it turns out closer to -10.

Also, the harmonic tuning method is the best way to tune to Just Intonation. The only technology that's changed is that tuners are much less expensive and smaller -- and more frequently used, these days. YOU WILL NOT GET THE JEFF NEWMAN CHART BY TUNING TO A FORK AND USING HARMONICS. The Emmons Guitar Co. chart (thanks to Ernie Renn) is closer to Just Intonation. You can see that the F's are -26 -- that's more than a quarter of a fret flat!

I'll say it one more time:
Playing in tune is much more important than tuning. Strings go crazy when they change temperature and that's another obstacle. Make your own tuning chart by tuning when the strings are near the same temperature as they are when you are playing. That's not easy to accomplish -- you do the best you can and teach your hands to do the rest.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 March 2002 at 10:18 AM.]

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 25 Mar 2002 12:01 pm

b0b: I hope this isn't Off Topic but while we're counting; the 329.6 Hz you mentioned for E: is that string 4 (or first string on a regular guitar..) ?

I'm assuming that it is and that would make string 8 164.8 Hz and string 12 on an extended E9th like you use (or 6th string on a regular guitar..) 82.4 Hz. If a bass guitar is two octaves below that, would the bass string low E be 20.6 Hz ?? That may well be but it sounds awfully low to me. Am I missing something ??

Regards, Paul

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 25 Mar 2002 12:36 pm

The low E on an extended E9 is the same as the low E on a guitar. The low E on a bass is only one octave below that, which according to your calculations would be 42.2 Hz.

Tom Ensink · Post by **Tom Ensink** » 25 Mar 2002 12:36 pm

Thanks Larry for your helpful information.

I know that this discussion comes up every once in a while. I guess I was ready for it this time.

I guess you can't ignore it. I know Bach wrote a book about tuning a piano about four centuries ago (or something like that). I guess the same applies to our instrument to some extent; not all intervals can be compensated with the bar. It is as simple as that.

I will regard this topic as closed.

Tom

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Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 25 Mar 2002 3:35 pm

If you're interested in comparing notes and frequency,

there's a nice tone generating program available for free download at http://www.nch.com.au/action/index.html#TONE

It plays the tone and tells you the frequency (Hertz) and note.

Ricky Davis practices to an A 440 tone on his metronome to practice intonation. I use this Tone Generator program the same way.
(Thanks for the tip, RD)

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Topics are only closed when the original poster requests it.

-j0ey-

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 26 Mar 2002 8:09 pm

Joey, I'm ready if you all are ready, great thread guys, lots of good stuff!!!
Steve